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lilyjohn

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I came into this a little late, but I am sooooooo with Ann and Becky.

I am fairly new to this forum, but I also feel that we should be able to discuss this here.

We are all dealing with life and death issues everyday, so why not talk discuss how we really feel.

My husband and children all know that I do not want to be kept alive artificially, and that applies to the feeding tube. I feel that when God decides to take me home, he will, and it would be against his will to use artificial means to keep me alive (if thats what you call living).

God bless all of you,

Barb

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I've thought about this quite a bit, as have we all. There are several points I'd like to make:

(1) If Terri is responsive, as her parents say, then she is responsive at the level of a 6-month old and does not know that she is brain-damaged. She derives pleasure from their attention. Of course, based on the medical info released to this point, that's a stretch to believe, but if that is the case, then there is no point in her dying. She's okay the way she is.

(2) If, on the other hand, her brain is gone and she doesn't know anything or feel anything or think anything on any level whatsoever, (which is likely the truth), then why does it matter so much to Michael for her to die, especially by starving her to death? Terri obviously isn't suffering and doesn't know whether Michael carried out her supposed wishes.

(3) Given the facts, where's the compassion? I cannot imagine the horror of what Michael and Terri's parents are doing to each other. Where's the kindness and the understanding for what each loved one is experiencing? They are just plain mean to each other, and that is a great tragedy.

(4) In other words, no matter which side is right, the logical choice would be to keep her alive since no one is harmed by that choice.

Personally, if it were me, I would hope that my husband would be kind and compassionate enough to spend the same 10-15 years, or whatever it took, to lovingly help my family members understand my medical condition and convince them that no purpose is served by keeping my body alive. If he couldn't convince them to let me go (and I was as totally unaware as Michael believes Terri is), then wait until they're ready.

Frankly, I don't think it would have taken 10-15 years to educate her parents if it had been done kindly, factually, compassionately -- and if they had been told that the final choice would be theirs. If Michael had taken the money and put it in a trust or given it to charity or used it to honor Terri in some way, that would have removed suspicion that he just wants her gone.

Michael has handled things with a cold, dispassionate attitude. I never get the feeling that he struggles with his decision, that he feels the weight of his decision. He honestly doesn't care whether her family is hurt or not. He even wants to twist the knife by taking custody of her ashes after she's gone. Now, that's petty. His attitude would certainly polarize her parents and make them go more deeply into their denial.

In addition, if her brain is mush and she can't feel or comprehend anything, it might not actually impact her one way or the other if she's starved. But, dear God, why take that chance? I wouldn't do that to a stray cat!

Pam

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Sense it is obvious that this is not going to just go away I have some words to add to what Pamela has said.

I would be more inclined to believe that Michael is trying to do what Terri wanted if he hadn't waited so long. Being very close to 3 situations that were similar I know that there had to be dozens of times over the years when she could have been let die. If it was her wish to not be kept alive like she is why was she not just let die?

When asked to remove life support from my brother I only agreed when it was made clear that in no circumstances would fluids and nutrition be removed. The doctors never suggested it, of coarse that could have been because one of my brothers told them that if they tried he would throw them out the window!

A question I have to ask is how much did Terri being alive affect the law suit? What life expectancy was used to determine the settlement? These are valid questions that no one asks or answers.

I think it is a shame that Florida does not allow divorce in this kind of situation. I see no wrong in Michael wanting to make another life for himself. Just don't stand there and say that he has devoted his life to Terri. I seriouly doubt that his mind was on her when he was making not one but two children with another woman!

As I have said before I do not advocate the right to die nor do I advocate against it. There is a big difference between letting someone die and chosing the time, place and way a person will die for them. Those things are only done in two circumstances, execution and murder. Sense Terri has not been convicted of a crime this can not be seen as an execution. That leaves only one word for what is happening to her.

It is very sad that somewhere along the way Terri got lost in the crossfire. Saddly she has stopped being a living breathing human being and became an issue. THAT is the saddest thing of all.

.

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My thoughts:

We continue, as a society, to have incredible medical advances that allow us to prolong life. At some point we have to find an understanding of when it is ok to seek death. Compassionately, at some point, it has to be ok to say- do not keep me alive if I reach this state.

I really struggle with the manner in which this woman is dying. I don't know what the solution would be but starving seems cruel. But I am in favor of letting her go.

Amy

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I think that if Michael believes Terri really is not aware of anything that's happening and feels nothing that there would be no harm in leaving her care to her parents. Her parents are currently the best people to decide what happens. I think depriving a person of water & nourishment is very cruel and have a hard time considering this as a humane way to let someone go. We wouldn't dream of putting our pets down that way or even executing killers on death row by starvation. This is not really 'letting Terri die' it is killing Terri.

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How many people are there in jail right now who have helped a loved one die? I remember hearing about several cases where a person just couldn't stand to see their loved one suffer. In those cases the person was in agonizing pain and begging for help to die. One man I remember was in his 70's and was given a long prison sentence. Why is this different? Why can these people chose to take someones life and not be punished for it?

As I said before there is a big difference between letting someone die and taking their life. Not to mention how cruel this way is. How do they know that she is not suffering? If they think she is not suffering why are they giving her morphine to ease the suffering? That is crazy they are contradicting their own claims!

Once you legalize taking someones life you open a door that can not be closed again. I know for certain that this happens a lot but is never admitted to. If this case sets a precident it will get worse. People will be chosing when and how someone will die and do it openly and there will not be one damn thing that their loved ones can do to stop it. Where do you draw the line?

One more thing. Even if Terri did say at one time that she would not want to be kept alive artifically I would be willing to bet she didn't mean that she wanted to be starved and dehydrated!

Who will be the next one who finds it more convenient for someone to die? You can bet this won't be the last time we hear of this :!:

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I am just so glad that this is all over for this family...all of them...and that Terri is now at peace with her maker. I still feel very strongly that the right choices were made and that reinserting the feeding tube would have been a mistake. I am aware that starvation seems cruel but I can also believe it is not always cruel and painful. Many cancer patients actually lose their battle due to malnutrition. I believe this was the cause of Dennis's death. He was in no obvious pain. Lillian, I am amazed that you, having worked in the health care profession, don't know that morphine is not only administered for pain. I was told by our oncologist that the morphine would help ease Dennis during the fying process...not necessarily ease pain but would make the breathing easier and not so very labored. Regardless which side of this issue you are on, and it would appear that many here are on opposing sides with me. it is a shame that this family had to air this in public. This was not an issue for politicians. It was a private choice that should have been made in the best interest of the patient. I have my paperwork ready and my guardian appointed. This will never happen to me!!! I believe that everyone involved in this case should have been asked one simple question. Would you want to be kept alive if you were in this condition??? Then their opinion on this issue should have been based on their answer. Who here....even my dear friend Lillian.....would answer that you would want to be alive and live as Terri has lived for 15 years?

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All who are weighing in may find this interesting:

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm

I believe, according to this timeline, that Michael tried everything possible to get his wife help after the incident leading to her vegetative state. I think the whole thing spent far too much time in court, far too much time in the public eye. As for all that money in the lawsuit, seems the only "winner" there was the hospice where Terri was cared for.

Very interesting background...may she finally rest in peace.

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I am afaid that you missed my point entirely. I don't believe that she should have been kept alive for so long especially if she stated that she would not want to be. I just think that there were plenty of oportunities to let her die natrually. I am very afraid that allowing someone to decide when and how someone will die and making it happen will lead to serious abuses.

I know personally that people are not always treated fairly and their wishes are not carried out. I think allowing this to happen will make it easier for people to make that decision for others and do it more openly. That is what I see as wrong. As I said before letting someone die and deliberately deciding when and how they will die are two very different things.

As for Morphine I have no doubt that it has it's uses. I know that when a person is ACTIVLY dying it eases them out of this life with less stress. When given the RIGHT amount to control pain it is very good. When too much is given or when there is no pain it can and does kill and not always when the person would die if not medicated into a coma.

This is a very serious issue. I really don't think that she should have been kept alive for any amount of time if that was her wishes. The fact that she was points to the fact that there was more than her wishes being considered.

Thank God that she is no longer suffering. I know that most cancer patients actually die from starvation. We were told that when Mama died. That was natural she had a serious illness and it took her life. Starvation may have been part of her death but it happened naturally. From all that both sides have said Terri had no serious medical problems. Starving her was just not the right way to do it. If they really wanted to kill her they should have done it honestly and given her an overdose and got it over with. No one knows for sure that starving was not making her suffer. As far as I know there has been no one who has starved to death and came back and said it was easy :!:

As far as the brain damage I will tell you that I saw with my own eyes that they can still feel. Harry was much worse than she was yet when his brain could not control his body temperature and it would go from 92 to 106 degress he would shiver and it was VERY obvious that he was in distress.

I really respect all of your opinions on this subject. I too think that the circus made around this poor woman was a disgrace. I just think that you have to have a place where you can draw the line. Let a person die if that is their wish but don't keep them alive for years then kill them deliberately when it is convient to you!

You mark my words when I say that this case was only the tip of the iceberg. This will happen more and more now and in some instances where there is not nearly enough reason to end someones life. A right to die will become a duty to die. When that happens we all lose!

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Oh boy bioethicists are envolved. That says it all. They believe that a peson should have a year to decide it they want to keep a child or kill it because it is non person at that time. Well folks if you listen to them and let them make decisons you will see that in their eyes most of us are non persons and deserve to die!

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Another timeline to consider......

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant

1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.

1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.

1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.

2000

Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb – Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.

2001

Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove Terri's feeding..

Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's case.

Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

Apr 1 - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files motion disqualify Judge Greer.

Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies Stay.

Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's jurisdiction.

Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about Terri’s death wishes.

Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume Terri's feeding.

Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional feeding stopped.

May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.

May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of Schiavo.

May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments Hearing" date.

May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible vegetative.

Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to decide whether Terri should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's feeding stopped.

July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop Terri's feeding.

Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd District Appeal Court.

Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule Judge Greer stay.

Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the tests .

2002

Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to be resolved.

Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary guardianship hearing.

Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary hearing.

Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:

1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program

2 Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees

3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and neurological condition.

Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing, Judge Greer -approved- payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological tests and rejected a dozen other.

Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

Oct 2 - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

Oct 11-22 Terri’s trial

Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District Appellate Court.

Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the January 3rd feeding termination date.

Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his objection.

Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending appellate resolution.

Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order. Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.

2003

Guardian Removal Petition Still Pending…

On November 15, 2002, attorney Anderson filed a petition with Judge Greer to remove Michael Schiavo as Terri’s legal guardian. The petition included a declaration of Adversary Proceedings, charging that Michael Schiavo violated a dozen or more specific Florida Statutes while serving in his capacity as Terri’s legal guardian.

Apr - Appellate Court Hearing.

Jun - Appellate Court Upholds Greer.

Jul - Appellate Court Denies Court Review and Stay.

Jul - Appellate Court grants 30 day stay.

Aug - Terri hospitalized under mysterious conditions, denied visits from her priest.

Sep - Emergency hearing to allow visitation and obtain current medical information.

Sep - Michael Schiavo ordered by court to give discharge summary to Terri's parents.

Sep - Judge Greer scheduled October 15, 2003 for the removal of Terri's sustenance.

Oct - 15 Terri's sustenance removed at Hospice Woodside in Pinellas Park, FL.

Oct - 20 Florida Legislature and Senate meet in special session Terri's bill is introduced.

Oct - 21 Terri's bill approved, signed into law. Governor Bush issues executive orderr.

Oct - 23 Michael Schiavo announces plans to sue Governor Bush and challenge Terri's Law as unconstitutional.

Oct - Dr. Jay Wolfson of Tampa, Florida assigned as independent Guardian ad Litem.

Nov - New Guardianship hearing in Sixth Circuit court.

Nov - Disability advocacy groups file Amicus Brief.

Nov - Judge Baird to hear case on Terri's Law. Governor not properly served in suit, appeals venue.

Nov - Governor Bush petitions to remove Judge W. Douglas Baird on suggestion of bias.

Dec - 3 Terri's birthday. Supporters convene at Woodside Hospice. Terri receives more than 1,000 birthday cards and gifts.

Dec - Governor Bush denied discovery in Schiavo v Bush. Governor denied subpoenaing witnesses.

Dec - 20 Guardian ad Litem dismissed by Judge Demers.

Dec - 22 Judge Baird rules that he will issue a summary ruling on Terri's law without a trial. His ruling is withheld until appeals by Governor Bush are ruled upon in the Second District Court of Appeals in Lakeland, Florida.

2004

Jan - 8, Judge Demers denies petition for reinstatement of Guardian ad Litem

A young Terri on Christmas Eve

No simple answer

Terri is not entitled to a divorce. Instead, her guardian must allow her a dissolution of marriage.

This site maintained and hosted by volunteers.

Copyright 2004 Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation

4615 Gulf Blvd #104-103 - St Petersburg Beach, FL 33706

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I agree with Lilyjohn. I think that a person who is extremely ill has no desire for food or water. The problem I have with Terri's death is the way that she died. Unlike most people who are 'let go' Terri's body was not failing her so she was not like most people in their final stages of death. If Terri's life had to be ended then she should have at least had the privilege of dying instantly instead of suffering through 13 days of dehydration & malnutrition. My husband and I have had our orders in place for a couple of years but I sure feel sorry for those people who don't take the time to put theirs in writing.

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I love the spirited debate of this issue because I believe that is how we all learn from one another. I appreciate so much the honesty and compassion that I see here. Thank you. You've enriched my life.

One note for Ann. Many cancer patients have been told the same thing about morphine, that it helps make breathing easier. However, I think everyone should understand how that works. Morphine depresses the respiratory system so that the urge to breath is suppressed. It doesn't help the air flow or open up the bronchial passages or anything else that improves the quantity or quality of breathing. It sedates the breathing mechanisms. That's not exactly the same thing as helping the person breathe easier.

That's why giving morphine to weakened lungs and weakened patients hastens their deaths. If the breathing mechanisms are sedated, it takes more strength to take productive breaths.

Below is a quote from the prescribing information for morphine:

"Respiratory depression is the chief hazard of all morphine preparations and occurs most frequently in elderly and debilitated patients and those suffering from conditions accompanied by hypoxia or hypercapnia. Use extreme caution in patients with COPD or corpulmonale and in patients with a substantially decreased respiratory reserve, hypoxia, hypercapnia, or preexisting respiratory depression. In such patients, even usual therapeutic doses of morphine may increase airway resistance and decrease respiratory drive to the point of apnea."

Whether or not it is compassionate to give this drug to dying patients (i.e., Terri) knowing it will hasten her death is another debate altogether. I could argue either side of that one. But I do think that everyone should be aware of why this drug is prescribed to dying patients (in the absence of pain).

Pam

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Pamela, please forgive me for wording my post incorrectly. Having a long time RN for an aunt, I am aware of what morphine does and doesn't do. It is, however, comforting to know that we have such a knowledgeable person as you appear to be on the board. I never meant that morphine helped the respiratory process at all. I meant that it helped lessen the anxiety that many dying persons experience. Although I am not a medical professional, I learned much more about the dying process than I ever wanted to know when my husband was ill and dying.

Would you want to be kept alive for 15 years living as Terri lived?

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