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cancers back and pneumonia too


shelliemacs

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Moms PET was yesturday morning. Then she had to go to another hospital for a esophagram. She could not do that because she can no longer swallow. They admitted her and CT scan yesturday afternoon showed cancer is back and is crushing her esophagus again. No food, no water at all. Then today we found out she has pneumonia too. They are starting her on antiobiotics today. Monday start Taxotere instead of chemo she was on. They didn't get PET results so I dont know if its anywhere else or not. They said if taxotere fails then Iressa. If that fails no options.

God has forsaken my mom, so no I forsake him. I dont believe in any god any more. I dont believe praying works, I think its all crap. I prayed for 7 months and it got her nowhere. He doesn't exist as far as I am concerned anymore.

They are going to put a feeding tube in her stomach and stint in her esophagus to try to open it up so she can take food again. I am completely broken inside for her. She is so lost now. I hate god and everything about cancer.

I will probably leave the board because I have no hope to offer anyone anymore.

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Shelly, I am so sorry! :cry: I agree with you, God doesn't exist. I made my mind up about it a while ago. I don't want to offend anyone, my dad already thinks bad of me for saying this, I just know God doesn't exist and we are on this planet to handle this on our own. That's why, I know I'm not much help, but if you ever want to talk to anyone, I'm here, Shelly.

jayentrole@hotmail.com

E-mail me anytime. I'm very sorry that your mum has to go through this. I'm sorry that you have to go through this. I wish I could make things better.

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I'm glad you've been OK. But where was God when my mum died and when I was diagnosed with Cancer? Where has God been in this terrible time for Shelly and her mother? Where was God when all of us and our loved ones were diagnosed with Cancer? There is good and evil in this world, all because of the humanity, and that's all there is. Humanity, nothing divine.

I'm sorry, I just wanted to add that, but we are not here to disscus religion, each one choses what to believe or what not to believe. We are here to support Shelly and her mum in this rough time :(

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I don't have any answers, as I go up and down the rollercoaster all too often myself - BUT -

I am confident 100% that God really does exists. I do not know the whys and wherefores of how and why and when He answers prayers, but I know that He does.

It is impossible for me to understand when things don't go like we pray for them to go - I don't understand why and it's awfully awfully hard - but I try to remember that

all things work together for the good, in the end, in the long run. Even though things may be awfully hard - in the end, it is for the best - in the end, it will all work out for the good. "In the end" does not mean at the end of our lives, but in the whole scheme of things -

Things may have to go the way they go to shape things for a future generation - for a future event - only God knows exactly.

I hope and pray for the best, and keep praying and hoping and I fear that my prayers won't be answered in the way I hope - but I keep hoping and praying -

Humans could not have built the earth, the sky, the seas, the sun, the moon and the stars. There is much more than just "humanity".

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Shelly, I am truly sorry for what your mom and you are going through. I just hope peace will come to both of you in whatever form that will be.

Jay, you are in a lot of pain, and rightfully so. I hope you find peace also, however it may show itself. Don

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Shellie

I am so sorry for what your mom is going through and for what it is doing to you, her loving daughter. I will be thinking of you and praying for you. I can understand why you feel the way you do right now, you do have every right to feel that way. You are in a lot of pain and it is very understandable for you to be angry. I don't have any other words to offer you but just to let you know I am here for you if I can help in any way please PM me.

Bess B

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Dear Shelly,

I am sorry that your Mom is having such trouble. I know this is a very hard time for her and for you.

I am sorry that you are mad at God. Does that make you feel better? After my Father died, my sisters didn't speak to eachother for a few years. The older sister was mad at the younger one. I know it made my older sister feel like she was more in control of an uncontrollable life event. Her anger upset me very much, but I realized that my older sister's anger had to go somewhere and I guess it landed on my younger sister. Maybe your anger is landing on God.

It took my getting cancer to get my sisters together again. Sad.

I guess what I want to share with you is that eventhough I have cancer I have never been mad at God. I have not lost my faith. My faith has deepened. My belief system works fine for me but I know it's not for everyone, so I have no advice except to say that if there's no payoff to your anger, if it doesn't do anything to benefit you or your Mom, why waste your time being angry?

I think of you all the time. Hold your Mom's hand and give her a kiss for me.

Love, Ada

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My Dear sweet Shellie and Jay,

How I can relate to the both of you. I spent years being angry at God. I thought"how could he dare take one parent, the two weels later take the other to cancer aso!" I then spiraled out of control myself for a few years. anger is something that you need to hang on to right now, don't let anyone take it away from you till your ready! Just a few simple rules about anger though....1. Don't unleash it onto those undeserving 2. Don't hurt yourself with it 3. Remember that God didn't do this to you or your mom. Bad things happen to good people in this weird Universe.God is speaking to us , but we don't always hear him. I am sorry .... I try never to bring religion into my counseling sessions, but well.... this is not a session. Shellie and Jay you are my friends who I care deeply about. WE all care, and hurt when you hurt. That is our perogative and you don't get to tell us how we feel Ha! Just don't ever give up on "hope or humanity."

Cheryl

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Shelly I am so sorry for what your mom is going through right now. Please don't leave the Boards, you do not realize that we all need each other. Your St. Judes post got me through this last week. You posted the Novena to St. Jude and that carried me through a really rotten week. It renewed my faith that was slipping a little bit. It's okay to be angry with God, he loves us anyway but remember the "Footprints in the Sand" poem. Hang in there and while you are angry with God, Gene & I will keep praying for you and your Mom as you have prayed for us in the past. Hugs, Carol

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Dear Shelly,

I can feel your deep pain and intense sorrow popping from my computer monitor. :cry:

As you know I lost my mom just about four months ago and it feels crumby. I also know it feels crumby to feel like we have done our part and then been let down in the most devestating way.

We are not taught to pray for that great carrot in the sky. We are taught to pray with Faith and then to place our Faith in God. I can't imagine being the God and sending my son, (our savior) to earth and knowing the terrible pain that he would have to go through for our sins (the atonement). It is hard to take that he suffered, bleed, and died for me and that my sins added to HIS pain. I don't think for a second that God relishes in seeing people suffer and in pain whether it be physical or emotional.

I consider myself to be a pretty religious person. I go to church, have duties in my church, I give donations to the church and I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. About the time that mom got sick my life started falling apart in addition to my mom's disease. I had just finished with Real Estate School and was preparing to take the test. . My 13-year-old daughter, (the one in the picture I sent you) was being harassed in school and her grades were dropping severely. My 16 yr old son had just gotten his drivers license and wanted his independence so badly that he was fighting with me about everything and anything that could possibility come up. My 19 year old son was never home and he responded to me that I was just too weird to be around. Well, I was running on adrenalin and my head was spinning, I was suffering from CWD and I also have CRS on top of everything else. About a month after mom had died the bottom feel out. I just couldn't take it any more and I became a recluse, NOTHING mattered anymore. My whole life was a total waste from my point of view. I had failed in so many ways. I just wanted to disappear.............

Ya wanna know what happened???

I said no to church. After all what had it all gotten me? I wasn't any better for it, my life sure wasn't better, and my kids weren't the angels I thought they would be. My husband wasn't a saint although close (he's put up with me for a very long time). When I said no to church that didn't mean I said no to God, I still prayed. I found this site about that same time and there were people here that needed me, but more importantly, I needed THEM. Praying with Faith has given me my life back.

Shelly, I don't know what the next day will bring, none of us do. Each new day we are blessed with light. That light comes from the sun and all of what we have comes from HIM. It is my belief that we came to this earth and our spirit is joined with our body and we have life. After we complete our mission here on earth our spirit leaves our body and we a reunited to be with HIM. I have said this many times before but I believe that HE has the perfect plan for all of us.

I can understand your disappointment and heartache really I can. You can even be angry but remember anger is a destructive emotion if we let it dwell within us a long time. When I was in the first grade I got a locket pin that had a really small doll in it. I was having trouble with the pin sticking me in the chest so I took it off and put it on the corner of my desk. I forgot about it until after art when I saw the girl in front of me playing with it. I asked her to give it back and she said it was hers. I went to get it from her and we ended up in a fight and our teacher got involved. She asked who it belonged to and we both said it was ours. The teacher said why don't I cut it in half and you can share it. I was mortified and said no! The other girl said okay. The teacher said that she would take it until after school but we both needed to talk to her then. After school, we went to her desk and she said that she was going to give it to me because she could see that it was mine because I loved it and didn't want it cut in half. I was so angry with that girl for almost getting my doll cut in half that I held a grudge for two more years. I hated her and whenever I would see her I would get so upset inside. My anger never accomplished anything; it just made me sick and all tied up inside. My anger also allowed me to walk around with a big scowl on my face.

I have a question for you. Does your mom also feel forsaken by God? You personally helped me when I was at my lowest Shelly. You prayed for my family and me. You lit candles for me when I have never had that done before. You reached out to me in friendship and our love in God tied us together. Shelly, I know you have great Faith. God is always constant and when we don’t feel close to HIM anymore it’s because We are the ones who have pulled away. I care about you and you are my friend.

When I was wanting to leave the board you and others asked me to stay and it has helped me so much. I don’t know about a lot of the treatment options because we didn’t get that opportunity to try many. I do know how to pray and give support. I do know the pain of loss and what has been helping me turn my life back around. I am not there yet but I am moving in the right direction and that’s all I can ask for.

I am thinking of you and as always praying for you. and yours.

HUGS, Shelly

Sorry So Long :roll:

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Shelley, Jay

I am sorry for all your pain... I do beleive there is a GOD, but do not beleive in pre-destination, therefore everyone controls their own destiny.

I lost my little sister in 1990, it has been until recently that I have been able to pray or go to church...

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When I watched my father in law dying of lung cancer, that's when heaven hit me. If there was not an afterlife, what was the point of being here? Too many people have died and saw "the light", only to be brought back and tell about it. And they always spoke well of the experience.

That said, when I woke up from my surgery, and was told it was lung cancer, I was sure that God hated me. I must have done something wrong to have cancer 3 times. I struggled with that for months, until I sat down with some very knowledgeable Bible people. They didn't give me an "aha" moment, but through it I did get an "aha" moment, and wrote the following poem: I shared it before, but cannot find the post.

Forgive me if you saw it before.

The doctor said it’s cancer

I’ve heard those words before.

That battle was already fought!

Again, why must it score?

I have two choices-fight or flight

I choose to carry on.

Yet I lie awake with restless sleep

And wait for morning’s dawn.

Inspiring! The people say.

You really are impressive!

I smile, I nod, and yet I know,

I did not choose this path to live.

I have some conversations

With my dear and heavenly Lord.

Why did this have to happen,

Did You think that I was bored?

“My dear,” I heard Him answer,

“You say why an awful lot.

My dear the answer’s easy.

Instead of why you say ‘Why not?’ ”

My surgery was 4/01. I returned to my teaching postion in September. I wanted no stress. I had lung cancer.

I hadn't worked a full week since March, and then 9/11 happened. We are very close to Maguire AirForce Base, and actually heard the jets take off when Bush was flying to New Your that first Friday. People in the area had been killed in NYC. My kids needed me.

And I realized God couldn't be mad at all those people in the WTC and on the planes. What had that little four year old who was flying to Disneyland with her mother done?

Stuff happens. No one lives forever. And yes, you are very angry and hurt. I cannot imagine your pain.

Sorry for rambling, but I can't reach you to hug you.

gail

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SHELLY AND JAY,

THESE READINGS ABOVE ARE REALLY DEEP. IF I EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT NOT LOVING GOD BEFORE I READ THE ABOVE, I WOULD BE BACK IN HIS GRACE.

I AM 67 AND HAVE NEVER LOST MY LOVE OF GOD. I MAY HAVE FALTERED SOME THROUGH THOSE YEARS FOR I TOO HAD LOST MY MOM AND DAD IN MY 30'S BUT I NEVER BLAMED HIM. I BLAMED MANKIND FOR MAKING THE TOBACCO, POISONS WE PUT ON OUR LAWNS AND TREES AND FOODS, AND IN THE AIR. MANKIND IS WHO IS THE FAULT.

NONE OF US ARE GOING TO LIVE FOREVER. BE HAPPY YOU HAVE AND HAD WHAT TIME YOU DO AND DID WITH YOUR MOMS. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOUR MOM DIED JAY BUT FROM WHAT I HAVE GATHERED IT MUST HAVE BEEN AN ACCIDENT. YOU ONLY HAD 19 YEARS OF HER BUT THOSE 19 HAD TO HAVE BEEN BEAUTIFUL, FOR YOU HAD GREAT LOVE OF HER. SHELLY, YOUR MOM IS STILL WITH YOU, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE AND BE HAPPY FOR THE TIME YOU TO STILL HAVE TOGETHER EVEN THOUGH AT THE PRESENT IT IS HARD TO GO THROUGH. ONE THING I WILL ALWAYS BE HAPPY ABOUT WHEN MY PARENTS PASSED AWAY WITH CANCER IS THAT I HELPED THEM THROUGH THOSE BAD TIMES. I THANKED GOD FOR ALLOWING ME THE PLEASURE TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. I KNOW SOMEDAY I WILL SEE THEM AGAIN. I KNOW SOMEDAY ALL MY FAMILY WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN.

I REMEMBER WHEN MY FATHER WAS DYING. HE TOLD ME THAT DAY, THAT HE WAS DYING. I THOUGHT HE MEANT HE KNEW HE WASN'T GOING TO MAKE IT THROUGH THE CANCER FOR HE WAS SUPPOSE TO HAVE 2 MONTHS MORE TO LIVE. I WAS JUST TOLD THAT THREE DAYS BEFORE FROM THE DR. MY DAD SAID TO ME AND I QUOTE "I AM DYING BUT I AM NOT SAD, YOUR MOM IS WAITING FOR ME AND WE WILL BE TOGETHER WITH EACH OTHER IN HEAVEN." NOW I HAVE TEARS AGAIN, AND IT HAS BEEN 30 YEARS SINCE THIS HAPPENED SO YOU SEE, NO ONE EVER FORGETS THEIR PARENTS. THAT LOVE AWAYS STAYS WITH YOU WHEN YOU HAVE A GREAT RELATIONSHIP ON THIS EARTH...I NEED A KLEENEX....

I PRAY THAT YOU BOTH WILL SEE THAT GOD DID NOT PUT CANCER HERE ON EARTH, WE DID AND WE MUST HELP RID IT SO OUR CHILDREN, NOW, AND IN THE FUTURE DON'T GO THROUGH THE HORRIBLE UPS AND DOWNS THAT WE AND OUR LOVED ONES ARE EXPERIENCING FROM THIS HORRIBLE MAN MADE ILLNESS OF CANCER.....

I WILL PRAY THAT YOU BOTH CAN HAVE SOME PEACE DURING THESE BAD TIMES.

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Shellie (and Jay) I believe in God. And haven't thought about NOT believing...even after my dad and mom were diagnosed with cancer. Heres how I see it.

1. If God doled out illness as punishment than Hitler and any other evil person-child abusers, murderers, etc. would have not only gotten cancer, but leprosy and any other awful disease you can think of.

2. Even though both my parents are sick, I STILL consider myself damn lucky, because I had them for my parents to begin with. They're wonderful people, and gave me the best life they could. They weren't perfect, but they were great parents. I would look at my friends families and be so grateful for mine, and I STILL DO! I can't bury myself in my sorrow that my parents are sick or lie next to them when they do die. It would be an insult to them and the love that they have for me. And, since I am a believer, it would be an insult to God to not be grateful for letting me have them as parents in the first place.

Blaming God is sometimes a natural thought, but we must remember that there are so many people that have worse things happen to them, that NEVER HAD A PARENT THAT CARED-let alone to loose one. And I'm going to be angry at God because I didn't have mine LONG ENOUGH!! No way! That is one gift horse that I will not look in the mouth.

Sometimes God answers our prayers in a way we don't like...sometimes he says 'no'...does it seem fair, no it dosn't. But here's the thing that I believe. We don't know the answers as to why things happen the way they do, but when we die-then it is all reveiled to us in technicolor!!

I used to work with people with severe developmental disabilities. My mom asked me 'Debi, why would God let people be born like this? Its so sad...why would He let this happen" I said what I believe to this day that people get sick or are born disabled to make US better people. We are ALL on this planet to help eachother. This message board is a WONDERFUL EXAMPLE of that. We come here to share knowledge, if it weren't for this board, and for a woman named Kerry that shared her experiences with her fathers lung cancer, I probably would not have known what Gamma knife was (the doctors NEVER mentioned it), and my dad never would have had that procedure (which was successful and had very minimal side effects) and I believe would not have done as well as he has. I will be eternally grateful to Kerry for having shared her knowledge. How sad would it have been if she were so wrapped up in anger that she weren't able to share her information or support here with us. It would not only be sad for us-who benefited from that information and support, but for her as well. I'm not saying it was easy, I'm not saying to shrug it off, stiff upper lip and all that....

I am saying that if all you feel is hatrid and all you feel is anger and all you feel is betrayal and bitterness-whether it is towards God, or doctors or whatever, than all you will be is that hatrid and anger and betral and bitterness...you don't have to believe in God. But whatever you do, you must see the good things that you have and that are possible for you. Otherwise, you are left sad and empty.

You don't have to believe in God, I find it comforting, but I don't think it is wrong not to believe...but think about it...WHY dont you believe? Is it because you didn't get what you wanted this time? or is there a deeper more philisophical reason? Because if you don't believe because you didn't get what you wished for, than, well...that's not a good enough reason.

I hope that you are able to come to a point that you will see that you WILL laugh again, that you CAN be happy...how would your mothers feel if they knew that you felt such dispare and are so wrapped up in anger that you aren't going to allow yourself to enjoy the life that, really, she gave you?

Keep us posted, and stick around...we need you. And if you need us, we are here. Take care, Deb

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To My Friend Shelly and my new friend Jay,

I cant begin to say I understand your pain. As much as I dont want to sound preachy, I would not forgive myself if I did not respond to this post.

God is only good. He even made the devil good and the devil chose to use his free will to be evil. God does not make bad things happen. Bad things happen because man let evil into the world. With this evil comes sickness, death, and unhappiness. The question lies in why are some prayers answered and God uses His power to intervene, and then other times He does not. That is what we will find out when we are in Heaven someday.

We will understand His plan and why it had to work that way. Right now our human minds cant begin to understand it. A priest told my daughter this when our not quite 40 year old friend was killed suddenly in a car crash leaving a 6 year old only child. He told my daughter that this friend now knows and understands Gods plan in a way that we dont yet. She knows why prayers werent answered the way her family wanted them to be and why she is separated from her daughter. She knows what we dont. We will someday and it will make sense.

That does not mean prayer cant change things and in reading the diaries of some of the saints we can learn that He does change things with prayer.

This lung cancer is my father's 3rd cancer in 4 years. He is a good man. Why him? I dont know, I will know someday. But I also know all the prayers going up for him mean something. Maybe its not as bad as it wouldve been if no one prayed. We'll never know what wouldve happened to him if no one prayed. His situation would have been worse.

If there was no God our lives would have no purpose. We live our lives in the best way we can so we can attain heaven someday.

I dont want to offend anyone, I send this message with love.

Please dont leave Shelly, we are here to support you as you have been here to support us. I pray for your mom and I look for your posts to see how she is.

Please email me if you need someone and if you want to exchange phone numbers through private messaging I would be happy to talk on the phone. Im a real good listener. I care about you.

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Shelly, I am so sorry that things have takens such a bad turn. Is it that her lung collapsed, or is it full of fluid (when my dad had this happen they called it a collapsed lung, but it was really that the lung was full of fluid and needed to be drained-they drained it and placed talc in it =i forget the name of the procedure) maybe that is what is needed, are they able to do anything for the collapsed lung?

I just hope that you know that I am thinking about you and am glad that you came back and posted and hope that you continue to do so...

Deb

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shelly I am sorry for EVERYTHING! TRUST ME I have questioned faith and all that! BUT my dad never did. My dad was a true Billy Joel fan (he seriously thought he wrote all his songs about his life) and I think Billy Joel was his unofficial god on the side of his roman catholic faith and as he said...his bible...ONLY THE GOOD DIE YOUNG!

I think about stuff like that A LOT!!! my mom's life....pardon my French has shi_! Horrible the things she has had to endure? I do not get it I get mad FOR her but that is natural reaction. I have to believe now my dad watches over me constantly...hopefully except when I am you know going the bathroom or doing something maybe he shouldn't be seeing but I have to have faith in that too. that he only peers in when he can and when something won't frighten him. haha

But honestly you have every right to be mad! and jay you too every right. it is also your choice what you want to believe anymore. BUT I chose to believe in a higher being cause my dad has to be hanging with him, and hanging with Mike and Carol's mom and Gianni and Fran's mom and Christina hubby (my dad was a BIG nature fan I am sure they are talking it UP!) Renee's mom, jay your mom they have to have met...you have to believe that!!! I do. I have to many weird instances to NOT believe their is a higher power and why he takes our loved ones some way before their time or makes people sick or makes us suffer....I agree with debaroo....to make us stronger people...to make us realize when you think your life is horrible there is a person out there that is way way worse off so think of that!

I believe we are all put on this earth to learn from one another every person you meet changes your life for the better or sometimes worse, everyone has an effect in some way...I am glad I found all of you cause it honestly was one of the best learning experience I have ever had!

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Shel,

I am so worried about you. You have been on my mind and in my prayers constantly.

I am tempted to post another essay to you but I won't. I'll just say that if your mom's time is short don't waste time on anger right now, you can always go back to that later. She needs to feel love radiating from you I don't want you to have any regrets about this time. You have told me that she has taught you to love the Lord and she will have a difficult time if she can feel your anger and hatred right now.

I believe in YOU, you have the ability to get through this. :D

Prayers and Hugs, Shelly

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Shelly-

Oh my dear Shelly-

I am welling up with tears at your pain. Oh sweet Shelly, please don't hold grudges, I know, mom just left me one week ago. I was so PISSED at God, not mad my friend, PISSED!! I would run out of the hospital and yell at the sky LOUD!!!!!!! (People must have thought I escaped from the crazy floor). It helped me so much. I'm still unsure why he took her, but know that your mom is still here, and what you need to concentrate on is...loving her, being by her side, telling her shes a great mom. Oh Shelly, it just so fresh in my mind, and I know what your going throught, mommys are so very very special. Being mad at God is normal, but questioning your faith is the exact reason this battle has been put upon all of us. We can't let the advosary win, we must still believe, although MAD AS HELL my friend, still believe. I can't say anything to help your heart, and spirit, but know I am here, and I truly do love you, and that your NOT ALONE, ever!!!!! PM me whenever you need! I am here.

Rana :cry:

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Oh Shelly, I am so very sorry to hear about your mom. I can truly empathize with your anger. I had a talk with my mom the other day and told her how angry I am (I don't have mine directed at anyone, but the damn cancer). I am angry, because she is the most selfless and loving person, so why does she have to deal with this. Why can't she be enjoying her granddaughter and life...instead of battling this dreaded disease. My mom (her usual amazing self) said to me, "Andrea, I am not angry, I have never been angry". "I am 65 years old and have lived an amazing life (she did say she plans to be around for a lot longer)". She continued to say that her heart really aches for the young people that should be enjoying life to the fullest, but have to deal with health problems. My eyes welled up with tears as I looked at her...even when she has every right to be angry as well as many other emotions, she is still her selfless self. I feel I continue to learn from her every day...it doesn't mean I am not angry. I am angry as hell.

I guess I am trying to say that I can understand your anger. But I also try to take away things from this horrible experience and grow from them and become an even stronger person. I feel I can direct my anger in helping my mom and to bring attention to this disease, so we can get the much needed help.

My heart truly aches for you and all that you are going through. I do hope that you continue to post...because you are a source of comfort to many many people here. I will continue to keep you and your mom in my prayers. Please know I am here. I send you a big hug.

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Shelly,

I just had to answer your post. This is not God's disease, it is man's which was created here on earth. We need to beleive in God that he will heal all of our sicknesses. All we have to do is ask in Jesus name and it will be done. Please don't give up hope on his miracles. Sometimes it takes a little longer that we have patience for, but he does answer our prayers. Please keep your faith and all will be answered.

I lost my mom when she was only 61 to Diabetes, not LC. I was not close to my mom, we lived too far away from each other and were never close, even during my childhood. It's a long story. Please get as close to your mom as you can and say the things you want her to hear and tell her how you feel about her. I wish I had. Please don't give up on God or your mom. They both love you.

I will be praying for you and your mom. Remember you are strong and we are all survivors.

God Bless and lots of hugs from California

Karen

DX'd 3-03 - IIIA-B NSCLC - Surgery not an option

38 treatments radiation 4-01-03 to 5-15-03

8 wkly treatments Carbo/Taxol 4-15-03 to 5-25-03

Started Carbo/Taxol 7-16-03 every 3 wks for ??? rounds

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