82 year old father - no treatment - 22 months - stage 4

[SharRob]

I was told by my dad's physician that he has stage 4 lung cancer (my dad doesn't know I know) but my dad was told (long story) that he might have cancer. In Nov 2006 he had a 10mm spot, in Nov 2007 he had a CT scan with contrast that showed it had grown to 4cm with nodules on other lung. So it appears that he has had lung cancer, now, for 22 months. He has had no treatments (also refused to have biopsy to confirm) and no symptoms (only recently has complained of sweating heavily). Can someone have stage four lung cancer for 22 months with no symptoms? With the sweating - is something going on now? He is on meds for back pain (has had this from previous surgery) and is very used to pain meds. The sweating is new. Thank you for any info.

(ps - this site is the best I've found just for this very reason that I can post on site for people who opt out of treatment-I just found this site - though have been reading about lc for over 9 months now.

[SandraL]

Welcome to this site SharRob but sorry about your dad and your need to be here. I have never heard of someone with Stage 4 that has survived for so long without treatment. Good for your dad. He made his choice and stuck with it and has hopefully enjoyed a quality life in the meantime. Reading your post will give others hope. Sorry I can't help with the sweats but hopefully others will come along who will. Please keep us posted on how your dad is doing.

Sandra

[SharRob]

Hi SandraL

Thanks for your quick response - but I didn't put the question correctly.

I was told this past Nov 2007 that he had Stage Four - I should have put the question - "Can a person have Stage Four with no symptoms for 10 months?"

(I believe that's when it became a Stage Four - when it grew to 4cm and had nodules-though started out 10mm a year before). So sorry for the confusion - (not enough coffee yet this am).

[recce101]

"Can a person have Stage Four with no symptoms for 10 months?"

From what I've seen, it's certainly possible. Some lung cancers are very slow growing. And unless there is a lung tumor or met in a location where it presses against a nerve, blood vessel, or some other critical organ, the lack of symptoms is not surprising. My first and only symptoms were a nagging cough and reduced stamina, and that didn't happen until the tumor in my right lung had caused a buildup of fluid (pleural effusion) between the lung and chest wall large enough to collapse most of the lung and essentially glue it to the wall in places. Reading the report of my exploratory surgery was quite a revelation, since I had no idea anything like that was going on.

I can't help you with the sweating question. Actually, I've had the reverse effect, which I think is more from the chemo than from the cancer. But cancer in itself causes various chemical changes that can have effects on metabolism and other body functions, and it's sometimes difficult or impossible to know what's causing what.

Since your dad doesn't want treatment, it's great that he's still feeling relatively well. Of course it's this same lack of symptoms that causes many people to have such a late diagnosis and rapid decline. Best wishes and Aloha,

Ned

[jaminkw]

On the subject of sweats, it's something I've thought about and asked about. Before my diagnosis I was having sweats periodically and should have been well past menapause. When I was finally hospitalized with a pleural effusion marking the beginning of my cancer manifestation, I recalled later to a nurse that I'd had a convulsive-like sweat in the hospital that I assumed was the fever breaking (I also had pneumonia). She said that it was more likely the cancer, so I'm assuming cancer can cause sweats. Since I still occasional have them and have shown no evidence of disease in five months, they scare me. As a therapist, however, I also learned that sweats can be due to anxiety--particularly issues we are denying. They can be a subtle sympton of panic attacks. Not really an answer here, but not an easy question to resolve definitively.

Judy in Key West

[phylsgirl]

SharRob

When my mom was dx back in December 2007 she too was Stage 4 with mets to the brain. Although she was dx in 12-07, her lung tumor had been there and growing for a minimum of a year and due to the size and other factors of the tumor after the biopsy the doctors feel the tumor was there longer than a year

In hindsight, the only major symptom mom had until about 4 months prior to the dx, was an awful cough which she had mostly in 2006. Believe it or not the cough subsided, but then in the late summer of 2007 the brain mets was caused more obvious symptoms (slurred speech, affecting mom's concentration, headaches how she was walking, etc

It was really the symptoms of the brain mets that caused my grandmother and brother to drag my mom to the ER which led to the dx in December 2007. And the tumor in her brain was Huge when it was dx and removed in Jan 2008.

The cough in 2006 was probably a symptom, but it's one that is usually ignored as "a cold or "touch of the flu" etc. So although I am not a doctor, I would say yes, it is possible to be stage 4 and not know about it or have those symptoms that are brushed aside as something minor.

All the best to you, your dad and your family.

Ree

[Ellen in PA]

Hi SharRob.

One problem with getting the kind of data you're asking for is that so few people refuse chemo from the outset, unless of course they're already too weak/sick to withstand it, so I think we just don't know how long an average person in decent shape would survive with Stage 4 lung cancer without treatment. When I was dx, in Dec 2007, I asked what the average survival time was with full tx (chemo/rad) and no treatment. I was told it was 8 months with full tx and a few weeks less with no tx. And so I've opted for no tx. Last week I passed the 8-month mark and I'm still virtually asymptomatic. I do take two shots/day of Lovenox for clots -- I was producing them before dx and that's how I came to be diagnosed (after fainting twice in the street) -- and I've had 14 sessions of radiation to some bone mets that were threatening serious damage to my spinal cord -- but nothing else. I still have no cough or other respiratory issues and am still enjoying my Marlboros. And, except for the 2 weeks when I had the radiation to the bone mets, I haven't felt the slightest bit sick or fatigued the whole time. So I would advise you to relax and be happy for your father and his decision -- he's already lived over 10 months feeling much better than he would if he were doing chemo/rad and he's still going strong, bless his heart. None of us knows when we're going to die (and life is 100% fatal ) but some of us are pretty clear on how we do not want to live. Lots of luck to you and your dad!

[Nick C]

If the question is can someone have stage 4 lung cancer and appear and feel perfectly fine.

The answer is yes. I don't know how long my mother's cancer was stage 4, but per doctors it was possible some of the brain mets were there over a year or longer.

[Ry]

Yes, you can feel well for a long time. Cancer also grows slower in the elderly, my MIL was in her 80's with stage IV NSCLC and felt well for 2 years until she died from a stroke.

Rochelle

[SharRob]

Thank you all for your replies, it's been very helpful. After reading as much as I can on this horrible topic only thing I come out with is everything is just so unknown. And dad, I believe, has made the best choice for himself. It's just that it's been hard "thinking" he may have this horrible disease and we both go thru each day as if nothing is wrong. It's hard to "fake it" sometimes. (He doesn't know that I know he could have stage 4 and he doesn't know).

I also read/hear conflicting things too (which makes me more confused). I told my doctor about dad and she said that it was fast growing (from 10mm to 4cm in one year). Then from what I've read it sounds like it's slow growing. The doctor also said he's doing very well and it should have been 6-8 months, so I asked her "where does the timeline start, at 10mm or 4cm?" This is what always confused me-when they give you a "time", where does the clock start ticking. And she talked in circles, never did get answer on when they actually do give you a timeframe because if it was 6-8 months back on the 10mm, well then I guess he is doing very well. And I guess not too many people choose not to have anything done-so dad is doing great (he's a tough bird anyway).

Having a place like this to talk to people is really wonderful. Thank you all.

[SandraL]

Hi SharRob. Please do not dwell on the number of months. Anything that comes from a doctors mouth is just statistics and averages. None of which any of us are, we are survivors who plan to beat any statistics. The fact is, even the best of doctors do not know with any accuracy at this stage of the game how long somebody will live. All sorts of people beat the averages anyhow...or they wouldn't be averages. I am sure there are stories with people like your dad who have chosen no treatment (I hope I have that right) who have beaten any averages. Just enjoy the time you do have with him and hope it just keeps on lasting. Take good care

Sandra

ps having said that, treatments do assist in extending life. Maybe after having this all sink in for awhile your dad might be more receptive to treatment. Like tarceva maybe. That is a pill that is taken orally and you don't even have to go into the clinic. There are some side effects but I think for the most part most find them quite tolerable. Perhaps a line of conversation you might want to consider opening up with your dad.