Expert Advice Wanted ~ FINAL UPDATE 9/23

[Kasey]

Wasn't sure just the right forum for this. It's not cancer-related, but I could use some input.

I suffer pretty much back pain - upper due to cervical stenosis, lower due to unresolved herniated disc and 'other' stuff, and in the middle due to radiation damage. Good news is that none of it is surgery worthy . Bad news is that none of it is surgery worthy . I've been on a quest for years now ~ even before lc dx to get some relief. Of course tx has exacerbated both upper and lower problems.

So......found a doctor who was going to give me shots in the lower to alleviate some of the pain. They are not cortisone, but no need to explain just what they are. IF they offered relief, he would give the upper back a try as well.

I went in all set yesterday to get this done. I needed to have an IV for contrast for an x-ray so he would know just where to inject me. Well, 5 tries later I was sent home. I know I am a hard stick - thin veins even before chemo tx. So today I am black and blue and hands and arms hurt. I am to decide IF I want to give it another try. Nobody there would offer an opinion.

So for all you experts out there ~ when veins 'blow' do they ever come back again or are they gone forever? Do you thknk it's worth another try? This is the only place that has offered me anything at all, so won't be looking for anybody else. Think they might 'get' it next time?

I'm pretty bummed today and am not sure what to do. I sure was anxious to get some relief, but don't want to waste everyone's time for nothing. Anybody with any thoughts? I'd sure appreciate them.

Thanks.

Kasey

[SandraL]

Hi there Kasey. Sorry you are bummed out and in pain. I too suffer from back pain, spine mets and then radiation. I am not surgery worthy yet but they are thinking about it.

I wouldn't consider any advice I give expert but here are a few thoughts. I have very small veins as well. And I have found the CT techs and the hospital very bad at dealing with IV's compared to the chemo nurses. For starters, apparently CT techs are only trained to give IV's in the laying down position. Last time I was there I insisted on sitting for that part because I knew I was going to be in major pain once I laid down and wanted to shorten that as much as possible. Well it like took them forever and many tries. At the hospital, where I go for Zometa infusions I now have a "yellow dot" on my file meaning, "do not attempt to give IV to this patient, call the hospital IV specialists." So my advice to you is to give it another try and call ahead and ask them to arrange to have an IV specialist from the hospital do the IV. There is always something they can find, you just need the right person and obviously the techs that you had were not the right people.

I am also hopefully going to be starting some physio therapy. Some decompression machine. But I am still waiting for them to call my med onc and get permission. I have a feeling unless it is a very gentle procedure she will say no. But, I am still going to go there and learn about some back strengthening exercises and see if that helps.

So I share your pain. There is nothing worse than living with chronic back pain. I hope you give it another try and it works out better next time.

Sandra

[ginnyde]

Hi Kasey,

Earl's veins were totally blown. We were always told to use an IV nurse because they could find a vein on a balloon.

It is worth a try. If push came to shove could they do it through a port?????

I hope you get some relief. Maybe a Bloody Mary on Sat.?

[sharyn]

Kasey,

I don't have the answer.... My veins are in pretty bad shape since my hospital experience.... I will be curious to see what others have to say about it...

Just know that I am sorry you are in pain and I am hoping they find a way to get that needle into you girlfriend!!!! Love, Sharon

[Patti B]

((((((Kasey)))))

I feel for you with the back pain - my mom has severe spinal stenosis so I know how bad that can be.

I agree with getting another shot at it but with someone else trying. Chemo nurses always could get my veins when the scan girls couldn't, and even in the chemo group, they had one girl who used to work in the ER they call when they have a difficult vein because they said she was a "sure shooter". Guess just about everyone in the ER gets an dIV put in so she was an expert.

They always told me to drink tons of water prior to chemo to help open up my veins, too.

Willl be thinking of you - sure hope you can get the procedure done. If it works, let me know the name of it, maybe my mom could benefit from it. She had the cortisone procedure done and it gave her no relief at all.

Hugs - Patti B.

[Kasey]

Thanks for the great ideas. I will try them all. Today arms and hands are less black and blue/sore. Maybe Monday I'll make the call and ask if there is any way to get a more expert IV'er. The ddrinking thing is a good one. I'll definitely be trying that!

Kasey

[tnmynatt]

Kasey,

You did get a lot of good ideas. This board ROCKS!!! Looking forward to hearing the good news on your back after the next time. Take care.

[Yorktown Linda]

Kasey --

Sorry for a late reply. I've been too tired to look at the computer.

Yes, blown veins usually recover in a few days.

I was on IV rcoephin for lyme disease -- IV everyday for 6 weeks. My dr. advised drinking plenty of water before each treatment -- swells the veins-- and kept a heating pad handy to warm the target vein before the infusion. Seemed to help quite a bit.

Linda

[Connie B]

Kasey,

I just wanted to share with you that my hubby has been dealing with a LOT of back pain the last 2 years for disc problems, etc., He too got a shot, and they gave him contrast etc., etc., however his did have steriod meds in the shot. Nor here nor there, but I will say this, he has gotten relief from it. Pain is on and off, more off then on, but he feels so much better he said.

I would diffently seek an IV expert. That I know of, veins do come back, but like you I have small veins in my hands too. At my last heart surgery I was black and blue all over my hands and arms. OY!! So, I know what your talking about. But I did find 3 IV people that could do me and do me right the first time.

Oh, my hubby also has numbness in his left thigh. That's still numb but it's not painful. He is just happy to be able to walk more then 3 blocks without having pain.

Good luck and I hope you feel better soon.

[shellit74]

Hi kasey!

When I had my first baby.. it took them 8 times to get an IV in me... I have the scars to prove it... so I agree with the following..

1. DRINK LOTS OF WATER>>>> dehydration is a major part of not being able to "find" a vein

2. the heating pad thing is a good idea too.. i am surprised that the don't offer that there..

3. ask for someone else who specializes in IV's, like and anesthesiologist..

I hope you are able to have the tests so you can get some reilief!!!

Shelli

[Sis]

Kasey,

I sure wish I could share words of wisdom, but there is a really good reason I never pursued a medical career. I just wanted to write and say I'm sorry that you're not feeling the best, and I'm sending prayers your way. Is it Pub time? Ellie

P.S. How did ya like that PSU game Saturday???

[jaminkw]

Kasey, So sorry to hear about your back issue. I think the "stick" issue with nurses and techs is a matter of talent--some have it some don't and some have it sometimes. My daughter was a pediatric nurse and whenever they had someone that was a hard stick, they called her. A tech blew her veins drawing blood one time and she was livid. My husband is a really difficult stick. Recently, he went to the lab where I go routinely for my blood work. The young woman who always draws my blood said, no problem, I'll get it. She did--on the first stick! He was stunned, I was relieved.

You got some good advice here, but I'm wondering what kind of facility at which you are having it done. If it's a hospital, you may have options about who does the procedure. If it's a doctor's office or small clinic, it may be more limited. In any event, ask for their best stick.

Good luck.

Judy now in New Jersey

P.S. So excited. Hope to see you next week.

[CaroleHammett]

Kasey: when veins 'blow' do they ever come back again or are they gone forever?

Kasey's original question was of great interest to me because (1) my veins blow easily, which is why I had picc line during 1st line chemo and also always asked for a "specialist" when I did have to have blood drawn, etc.); and (2) I am currently looking into IV Vitamin C therapy, which is not covered by insurance, thus the cost of a picc line ($2K plus) would not be covered either.

I have been "interviewing" medical and naturopathic doctors re these IV Vit. C treatments and to those who are pushing for picc line or port, I've reminded them that I'm already at untreatable Stage IVB, so what does it matter if my veins are blown out!

On the other hand, it would be nice to know--as Linda and Connie wrote--that they'll make a comeback--and as Linda wrote--in a short period of time, thus I wouldn't have to stop treatkment just because I had no veins left.

I have been a major water-drinker ever since my dx (traded in diet cokes for water in 01/07), but appreciate that tidbit, too, as I will take even more care to "tank up" before IV Vit. C infusions if I go that route.

I am also going to try to set infusion appointments for afternoons just in case the same holds true re efficacy for Vitamin C as for chemo when afternoon infusions (as article re recent study published here showed).

With great thanks to all for your input and--as always--with love and affection,

Carole

[Kasey]

Wow........thanks all AGAIN for the great info. Carole ~ glad you got some useful info from it as well.

The facility is a neurourgeon's practice with a whole floor designated for these types of procedures. Wouldn't ya THINK they would have someone with expertise enough to get this done???

At any rate, I received a call yesterday from one of the nurses who witnessed this savagery ( is that even a word?) and she said she's looking into seeing if someone from the hospital could come and do me. I then passed on all the info about drinking and heat and hagning my arm down and NO hands. She appeared shocked at it all. If you recall the doctor himself went digging into my hand almost to the point of me fainting. Fred now has mentined this ~ IF he was that terrible trying to get a vein for an IV, what would he be like putting needles in my back???? YIKES a million times over. I'm rethinking this whole thing!!!!

Kasey

[cat127]

Even better than an IV nurse is a pediatric IV nurse. Figure how little the veins are that they usually try and find. Good rule of thumb, never let a Dr do it. They aren't the ones who do this all day every day.

Kelly currently looks like she's been beat up, due to a lot of folks trying and failing to find an vein when she was in the hospital this past weekend. She feels your pain!

I would not have thought of the heating pad, which is funny because I used to draw blood from lab rats all the time and we would dip their tails into a beaker of warm water to make the vein easier to stick. Not that I'd recommend dipping you in a beaker - the heating pad would do the job!

Good luck, glad you got lots of great information here!

[jaminkw]

cat, You get my LOL award for today for the bit about NOT dipping Kasey in a beaker of warm water!

So glad to be back on an internet connection that functions!

Judy in New Jersey

[Maryanne]

Hi Kasey,

Just read your post and I feel for you. I am so sorry you are going through all this pain.

I have a problem with pain as I have major scoliosis and degenerative disc disease. You probably noticed when you see me I get shorter and shorter. You always seem to be

towering over me.

I actually went from being 5’1 ½ to 4’11 (made them take my height 3 times before believing it)

You are certainly good at hiding it as when I see you, you look great and never complain.

I have no advice for you but you certainly received much from your post. I hope if you decide to have the procedure I really hope it works for you.

Take care my friend and just know that if there is a will there is a way. Hopefully. . .

Maryanne

[Kasey]

Here we go again............. ! Monday morning I am to report to the HOSPITAL for someone who knows how to do IV's to put one in. Then I wait until 2:00 (3-4 hours) and report to the neurosurgeon's office for another go at the shots. Not holding my breath on this, but at least they're trying to work it out for me. I'll let you know how it goes.

I'll be sure to DRINK lots and trust this expert is just that !

Thanks agin for all the input. You guys are most helpful.

Kasey

[SandraL]

Hi Kasey. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. Get them to wrap both of your arms in warm towels. They always do that for me. Others walk by and figure I am getting IV's in both arms! But they are just keeping all their options open. I am looking forward to hearing a success story from you.

Sandra

[jaminkw]

Kasey,

Here's to a quick and painless stick and much success with the treatment.

Judy in GA

[Wendy]

Good luck tomorrow!!

Wendy

[shineladysue]

Kasey,

I have no idea how I missed this before, but I've read it over now. I'm so very sorry you are living with so much pain. I want you to know that you will be in my thoughts and

prayers for tomorrow.

Hugs,

Sue

[Don M]

Good luck Kasey

Don M

[Patti B]

Good luck, Kasey - hope they can get it onthe first stick and hope the procedure goes well!!!

Hugs - Patti B.

[cat127]

Good luck Kasey!! People that do these everyday all day, are amazing at how they can find the smallest of veins. I've got high hopes.