The "AngerTowardsTheOneWhoIsIll" Rant

[Guest]

Aki's post under Newcomers and Elaine's response to it has me thinking about things this morning with a bit clearer head than I possessed when I responded to Aki last night.

I disagree that it is 'normal' to feel anger towards someone who is ill, in this case Aki's mother, and in my case the anger is directed towards me.

I didn't get angry with the ones I love when my children were ill (or my Mother, Father, Aunts, Uncles, Friends, Siblings, etc.). I was saddened and I wanted to comfort them...to help them. So no, I don't agree that anger towards the person who is ill is "normal". It may be normal for some folks, but it isn't normal for me, it isn't normal for anyone I grew up with, it isn't normal formost of my children. Only the the self centered and self absorbed kid, and up until recently, their Father. And the very young...little kids are self absorbed. THAT is normal. But when you start to grow up you're supposed to get clued in to the idea that the world does not revolve around just you. It isn't all about you.

I reacted to Aki never mentioning once what she thought her Mom might be experiencing. It was clear that her focus was on herself only and how her Mom's illness was impacting her. And if that isn't self centered then I don't know what is....This morning I wonder how Aki is. Last night I assumed she was a young adult at least 17 or 18.

I was harsher with Aki in my response last night than I might have been had I not been on pain meds. If I had to do over again I might have expressed the opinion differently, but the opinion itself wouldn't have changed all that much. Aki's fears and concerns about her Mother's illness were identified only in how they were actually impacting her now, or might impact Aki in the futre. No mention was made about how any of this is affecting her Mom. Since I actually live with a situation like this right now I'm not the most objective of people. I don't know that people like my child, my husband, or Aki do feel regret for their actions at a later date, unless there is some kind of consequence for them at a later date (disinheritance, for instance).

At any rate, I personally have had it up to my eyeballs with people who are not ill being angry at the one who is, especially if the only thing the ill one has done is get sick. Grow the heck up and while you're at it develop a bit of humility and humanity. Learn to make the distinction between being angry with the situation and behaving angrily towards the person you claim to love.

I appear to be digging myself into an even deeper hole than the one I jumped in to last night....good thing I'm going to be nuked tomorrow. It's dark down here.

I'm angry.....I do not want to die....and I am royally pissed off at the prospect of doing so.....but I do not take it out on others. I do not punish you for being well.

[Guest It's Fay A.]

I don't understand why this has happened again. I'm signed in, and the post came up as authored by a guest. I ain't no guest....I'm family.

Fay A.

[Elaine]

Actually and honestly I have been sitting here just now rethinking my post to AKi. I have been thinking the exact same thing: Is "anger"a "normal" feeling given the circumstance? I say now, no it is not normal, certainly not logical (but what feelings are?) and certainly not healthy. But does it happen, espcially with cancer, and especially lc, I say, probably.

I thought back and asked myself: Was I angry at my mom for being so sick in the months before she died? Not at all. Was I scared.? Yes, I was. Did I withdraw from her? Yes, I did. Did she do the same? Yes, she did.

It was not anger, that drove me to be wary. I was scared. Very scared. This was in the 1960s when for some strange reason no one thought children were people, just unaware children. Not the case. I can remember verbatim thoughts I had, and I was "aware."

I knew much more than those around me thought. In a way, they were self-centered too, as they obviously weren't looking very closely at how I was doing through that time.

Do I blame them? No, so much was going on. I can tell you what I was afraid of: I was afraid to face the truth. I "knew" my mom was dying; I overheard a conversation. But I was afraid to hear it from her lips toward me. It gave me hope and it helped keep me in denial, I guess. Though denial was a fleeting thing, daily.

Was I ever angry at my mom for dying? No. God? Yes. I was an angry pre-teen and adolescent at times--not at my mom but at the circumstance.

As an adult I have never been angry at my mom for dying. Or at anyone, for that matter for dying or being ill.

My father was ill for many years. Again I was not angry. Scared at times, espeically until I was on my own because I was afraid we would be parentless.

About a month ago, I was doing a search for some thing or another and stumbled on a forum for copd. It was made up of all caregivers. I could not believe the amount of anger that shone through the posts. And blame. And self centeredness. One post I remember has something to do with the caregiver (a daughter) being so mad at her mom for having copd and for having smoked. Mad because the caregiver feared she, too, would get some lung disease.

These were mostly middleaged caregivers of parents in their late 60s to 80s. I almost didn't come back to this site because I was just certain that the caregivers here felt similatly but didnt' share it because there were so many patients on this board.

In a nutshell, I don't know if anger is "normal"--and I don't think Aki's message showed anger. I think it showed fear.

love

elaine

[Fay A.]

Elaine,

It's awfully brave of you to jump down in this hole with me, not once but twice!

I didn't get fear from her, but then my experience with fear is that it comes off as fear, not anger or ambivalence or ambiguity. If it really is fear then I hope she finds a way to face it. At least if you face your fears the hurt is an honest hurt that can-eventually-be overcome. If you run from those fears the wounds fester and never fully heal.

[Elaine]

Fay

I think a lot of fear comes off as anger or ambivalence. Just my experience. Fear often builds walls around people, like fear of committment. etc. Men often express fear with anger. (Anger is about the only emotion that men have been culturally "allowed" until recently.)

I seem to follow people into a lot of holes. I hope my being in the hole can help someone else, though.

Dang, someone send Fay and I some shovels.

Becky the almighty Snowflake, are you going to get in the hole with us?????

elaine

[Fay A.]

Or a flashlight....at least until tomorrow when I should start glowing in the dark. I think inviting Snowflake is a great idea... and while we're at it anyone else who feels like jumping in to a deep, dark hole where you can't see what's coming at you, and Cheryl's and Jack's monster is probably on the floor just waiting please feel free to dive in. You're all welcome.

Just shoot me.

[Frank Lamb]

Hi Fay and Elaine,It's me with my shovel and flashlight.Personally I think very few people have anger towards those of us that are ill.I too think it is more fear.As you both know we all read a lot of posts and a large majority (I think)are from caregivers,most of the time they are filled with love and emotion.I also think they do a wonderful job (mine does).I also feel its a good chance that it is as difficult if not more so being a caregiver.I think some people post and tomorrow wish they hadn;t.

Oh well enough of that(I 'm not on painkillers-just Bud LIte.)

[Addie]

Ladies....may I be your nightlight till Fay steps in? I've got 7 days of radiation under my belt.....I should be sending off a nice warm glow....perfect for lighting up holes!

I caught this thread...had to go back to read Aki's in Newcomers....and here I am again with my thoughts.

One of the first things I said to my husband, my kids and my best friend when I told them about my lung cancer was..."I'm sorry". I further told my two sons, "You may well experience some anger over all this....even some anger directed at ME and if you do, that's okay....cuz truth be told I'm a little pi**ed off at myself!!"

They all denied any anger at me, specifically....but you know, I WAS a smoker and I knew the risk I was taking....so it seemed a good idea for me to address that possible anger right from the get go! In a way, I think it sort of diffused any anger that anyone might have had....including my own.

I guess I feel that Aki may have a combination of fear and anger that has caused her to withdraw. But it will NOT help her to avoid regretting this action....that is for dang sure! And too....sometimes the person who is sick presumes anger when it's NOT that...so it's hard to know what Aki's mother is thinking right now.

I'm remembering taking care of my mom in her final months battling colon cancer. One day, in her hospital bed in the dining room and following radiation....she accidentally soiled the bedsheet three times before noon. So that meant I changed the sheets three times that day before I even made her lunch!

She started to cry the third time and said, "I'm sorry, honey"....and it made me realize that I'd been sort of grumpy that last time in getting her into a chair so I could change the sheets.

It was like a slap in my face. I stopped and went to hug her and said, "Oh Mom, don't you apologize. I'm not mad at YOU....I'm just mad that this is HAPPENING to you!" And I was. It was hard to see her not be the mom I remembered from before she was sick. I hated to see her hurt, suffer or struggle with her illness and I loved her to bits...which she knew. Heck, I broke up my family and took my youngest from the east coast to the west coast to take care of mom for three months at the end of her life. It meant some sacrifices here...but I am so grateful I was able to be there for her.

I hope Aki finds the courage to SAY to her mother what she is feeling. And Fay, I'm so sorry you can relate to this situation. I guess it's true enough that much as we'd like to think the best, or find excuses sometimes for why people react as they do....the simple fact is that some people ARE rather self-focused and only see things thru lenses that amount to "how is this affecting ME"....rather than how it affects someone else.

There is a person whom I've NOT told about my cancer for just this reason. Obviously, it's someone I don't see or live near.....but I knew that my cancer would become HER great burden....and I wanted no part of that. So...I never told her.

Don't know if I've muddied the waters here, even as I've glowed...but there's my 2 cents worth!

[Don Wood]

Anger has been my primary emotion (I know some shrinks think it is secondary) through life when a crisis or large disappointment arose It was my way of venting, because it is hard for me to cry. Luckily, when we hit this LC crisis, Lucie knew the anger was not directed at her but at the circumstances, and she allowed me to vent. Then we would talk about it and I would assure her I was not angry with her. And I can truly say, I have not been angry with her over this. My anger is "How dare she be given this disease when she doesn't deserve it." Actually, Lucie has told me that I have handled this road a lot better than she thought I could. I am not proud of the anger, and I do ask forgiveness, but it is a way for me to let loose and move on. I agree it should never be directed to an ill person, and that should be made clear. Don

[natalie]

Maybe I read the wrong post, but when reading Aki's post, I didn't get that she was angry at her mom. I think it sounds like she is having a hard time coming to grips with what's going on. She's numb and scared to know more about her mom's illness. Should she be crying, showing her fear, concerns in front of her mother? I know my mom didn't want me to. It sounds like she was venting to us...that's counseling in and out of itself. Aki said she isn't "feeling" the emotions, but I swear when reading her post, she was...guilt, concern, worry. I just don't want us to scare newcomers from coming on here. This sight helped me learn how to cope. It gave me insight and support. When I came onto this sight I received warmth and compassion. It gave me a place to come and for that I'm greatful. I think everyone should have that experience when coming here.

[Andrea]

I agree with Nat. I went back to see Aki's post b/c I had not read it before. I don't see anger or self centeredness at all. If her response is self centered, then color me the same. I read the post as Aki being scared and afraid, having dreams of losing her mom, and pulling back. Almost seems like Aki is having the exact reaction I had, just physically reacting differently.

Aki---if you read this, all of us kids react wierd to our parents having cancer. And I can't speak for all, but speaking for many I know, antidepressants REALLY helped us.

I personally cried all the time, i was scared, I was angry, I drove away from gas stations ripping out hoses That in a way is self centered b/c I was so upset, what about my poor mom! We all just react differently to things. The fact that Aki is posting her concerns shows how much she loves her mom.

Aki--talk to your mom, hug her, tell her you love her, and perhaps see if medication can help you get through this with a clear head. I could not have survived without prozac and xanax. It does not have to be lnog term, my mom was diagnosed in Nov and I am finally off the prozac now. It kind of helps keep the mind in check.

Please post all you want and vent away!!! Family member sectino is a great place to vent!

[Elaine]

I said it before in Aki's post. I dont see the post as being unduly self-centered. However, Aki is not talking to her mom and that's got to be painful to both of them, which is why I wondered if she might get some counseling. I didn't mean to be harsh, at all. I think she is afraid and may regret not being closer to her mom. It's just hard to know the nature of their relationship before the DX. So none of us can really offer true advice.

Natalie: I don't think she necessarily has to cry etc in front ofher mom all the time, but not talking at all seems to be a problem for her and her mom, I'm sure.

Anwway, thanks for coming in the hole with us.

elaine

[Snowflake]

Oh geez, Fay and Elaine, skip the shovel, I have a pick axe to get us even deeper...

First, on the Aki newcomer post: I am sensing a few things there, there are some of the WHAT?? moments (like NOT talking to a person you are living with, that is SUPPORTING you) and the OHhHHHhhhh moments (I think there is a bit - oh hell, a whole lotta, fear there). Also, I feel that this is a younger person due to living with Mom and some of the thoughts expressed... I think counseling is a good call, to work through the growing up while being knocked around by Life. (My opinion, I walk a thin line here, being a pagan Jesus-basher and trying to be politically correct when dealing with personal things on a public board - which leads me to:)

Secondly,

I guess my little hole is more of a tunnel in yet another direction - sorry, ladies...

Guess the sooner that house gets built the better for all involved...sometimes it's better to be the child that lives "far away" that DOESN'T see all the bad stuff, just the "spiffed up for the holiday festivities" stuff...

I need a vacation.

...and if Aki is a troubled young person, I have read the website attached to his/her (sorry, can't guess it) profile. I would hope this young person could find someone in his/her real life to talk to, free counseling through a cancer society, clergyman, close neighbor, teacher, SOMEONE to discuss some very deep, very real feelings. The introduction that I read was very, very short, the tip of the iceberg, so to speak...

I believe this young one is in a very precarious position and would not want to be the one to push him/her over the edge. Many things that were mentioned on the attached website parallel what went on with a young woman living in my house upon my diagnosis. Please, please check into some counseling, and keep writing! Get the poison out, don't let it dwell within and destroy you. Your mother needs your support but also needs to know that if she does not win this battle, you will be able to take care of yourself, that you will not "go with her".

Take care, all.

Becky

[Andrea]

I hear ya Becky. I think that is why my parents get angry with me and my weight problem. And that is why before my mom was diagnosed I would go off on rants at her and scream and yell that she does not care if she has grandkids b/c as a diabetic, she needed to monitor her sugar and take care of herself. It is all out of love. I am cute, my parents tell me I am cute, it is not vanity, they get mad at me for my own good. I know that. I am still fluffy and at tiems get upset with them, but deep down I do the same thing.

My dad always used to exercise, recently he looked 9 months pregnant and I asked daily if it were a boy or a girl and got so angry at him, he saw it too when he had no clothing except sweats and is exercising. We get angry when those we love hurt themselves.

PS--just an aside, I do have to laugh, it took lung cancer for my mom's diabetes and high blood pressure to be perfectly under control kind of ironic

[Elaine]

I hear you all, loud and clear, but .....

Anger is not a helpful emotion to be displaying toward a loved one whom you care about. It will not get someone to stop smoking or to eat properly. It won't. Ranting and raving at anyone is not going to amount to a hill of beans. It just hurts.

Nor will keeping it all locked up--that will lead to unhealthy silence.

Soooooooo , what's the answer?......you all need to find it for yourselves, as do I. I just know that neither displayed anger (in unhealthy ways) nor tight lips will do a dang bit of good and will only hurt all involved in the long run.

Counseling and looking inside deeply.....That is why I never suggest beating those monsters with clubs..... Those monsters have things to say, and we best listen to them...

There's an old lesson in one of the Godfather movies: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer..... That's what I have to say about the monsters in the basement. You may think you scared them off, but they are surely going to find away around your club and come out somewhere else.

Ok, now I am way down in the hole........

elaine

[Elaine]

I also want to add this to my above post. I come from a family of "yellers' on one side and "tight lips" on the other.

I have seen it all. I do both. Lots less the older I get, especially the yelling.

My husband? He yells. I don't know where he got it. ... Other than he's a man.... When he yells, I stop listening, a common reaction to yelling, lol.

All family dynamics differ, I know, so that's just my penny's worth on displaying anger.

elaine

[Elaine]

Becky

You have every right to be angry with your dad. It's just what you do with or about that anger that matters.

elaine

[DeanCarl]

Some things I've learned about anger:

First off a qualifier. I grew up angry. At everybody. You've all read the news stories about the "bullied" kid in school who suddenly snaps and hurts or kills a bunch of his/her classmates? Well, that was me. Except I didn't hurt anybody, then. Instead I turned the anger inward and spent much of the first half of my life trying to kill me. Alcohol, drugs, and the way I lived. Somewhere during that time I started turning the anger outward and started hurting other people. Got a reputation. Got such a reputation that some folks decided I'd be real good at helping them "collect" on unpaid debts. So, for a while, I got PAID to be angry. Such a deal.

When I walked away from all that I forgot, at first, to leave the anger there, too. About a year after I sobered up a friend of mine was teasing me about something or other. She stopped in the middle of it and told me that 6 months ago she never would have teased me like that because she would have been afraid I'd come over the table after her ... and she was right.

So I know a little about anger. Such as:

MY anger is ALWAYS based on fear. ALWAYS! If I want to know why I'm angry about something all I have to do is be honest with myself about what I'm afraid of at the moment. Once I do that THEN I can deal with what is REALLY going on in my life.

All anger does is hurt someone. Either I explode outward and hurt someone else or I implode and hurt myself. Anger has never made ANY situation I've been in better, always worse.

Anger (and the fear that is behind it) FEELS GOOD! At least for me. Anger and fear produce a drug called adrenalin. Adrenalin is a central nervous system stimulant and a POWERFUL one. Now remember, I'm a drug addict. When I was using I LOVED central nervous system stimulants!

Anger can be used to control people. Is there anyone here who has not been controled by someone being angry at them or, on the flip side, as not used anger to try to control the actions of someone else?

Finally I've learned I cannot afford anger in my life. Every moment I spend being angry is a moment lost to me. I get angry. I am not perfect. But today, when anger shows it's ugly head, I do everything in my power to get rid of it ... NOW. I look for what I'm afraid of. I do something active (anger is an ACTIVE emotion) to help get rid of the adrenalin in my system. If, in my anger, I hurt someone I make amends and try to get things streight with that person. If, in my anger, I have hurt myself I make those same amends, only to me.

We here battle a horrible disease daily. Any energy I spend being angry is energy that I do not have available to use to live my life. When I'm angry I don't see the flowers in my garden. When I'm angry I don't take the time to pet my cats or laugh at their antics. When I'm angry I don't feel the sun or the rain. When I'm angry I don't feel the love from my wife and daughter. When I'm angry all I see, hear or feel is the anger. And that is NOT the way I want to live.

Dean

[pecola]

Fay, I have re-read your post to Aki several times - yes it was blunt, but it was reality from someone who has viewed it from both sides of the fence.

Now, originally I wrote a longer response here, but then I realized that all those before me had said everything that need to be said in a much wiser way, so I'm shuttin' up for now.

Gina

[Lisa O]

Sorry,

I am climbing in with Fay. There are very few posts that have bothered me enough that I will just click off without even responding. This was one of them. It is hard enough to battle this beast without worrying about the agenda of each and every person around us. If she is afraid she should seek counseling instead of taking it out on her mother. I would also like to add that we all have free will. Just my opinion.

[Andrea]

OK, I was curious about Aki. I saw only one post and feared that we might drive him/her away.

If you want to read about Aki, whom I believe is a 17 year old boy, look at Aki's post, click profile, and go to the website. Here is the website cut and paste: http://darkrayne.evolutionarydefect.com/frameset.html

You will notice that I think the third post down talks about skipping school, cancer drugs, his mom's pension, etc.

We have to remember that when people post we don't know their age, background, upbringing, etc, and obviously they come here to seek help.

I know that my opinion changed when I read what I just read and I am worried.

[kimblanchard]

I took it for "a lot more is going on here than this message", that is why I just said if you want it to be different. It seemed a bit affected, to make an impression. But that does not mean the person doesn't need help.

Whomever it is, they did take the time to find this place. That alone means they are thinking about it and probably feeling about it, even if they don't want to let others know.

[Guest Protecting my children]

I am sorry for the caregivers who are angry and frustrated. I do understand how that feels having been in that position more than once myself. I am now, however, on the other side. I am a mother and I have lung cancer.

Andrea, while I feel for the angst of the child of the patient (I have a 17 year old myself and vehemently feel that my illness had better not justify skipping school, engaging in drugs or any other behavior of the kind) I do not believe that it gives any rights to act out in disrespect or to ignore the person who is suffering with the illness. I am not speaking specifically to the person who wrote the post now but in general.

I have lung cancer and I am going to leave behind two children. I am stage IV. It is a matter of time. Hopefully more time - not less. My daughers have a right to be angry. One of my daugthers may barely remember me. She is only 8 years old. I am certain that she will be angry. At me??? Why would that be okay? Would I deserve to suffer a cold shoulder?

While it is certainly understandable that the children of a lung cancer patient will be going through a difficult time, once they are over 16 or so, it is reasonable for them to feel some compassion for others as well. I am glad that the teen sought advise but I am even more glad that people gave him/her HONEST advise about how to prevent having regrets. That is a great deal of baggage for a teen/young adult to carry.

I would have signed in for this but I don't know if my teenager ever reads this board.

[Andrea]

Protecting,

I agree that all children should respect their parents. There is no doubt in my mind. And my heart breaks that you may leave your children, it is truly unfair.

The only point I was trying to make was that we do not know Aki. We saw one post, which from my read of it, is just someone reaching out. It is good that people gave him honest advice, but some of it was harsh and judgmental. We don't know his entire story, his upbringing, his life. And then I went to check out the website. And well, the website from what I read tells the tail of someone who may be very troubled and needs real help, not criticism. I think Snowflake said it well in her post above. We would not want to drive this person over the edge, when it is clear that this person may be nearing the edge. That's all.

[Angie Daughter of Bill]

Maybe I read more into Ja na's post than was there...............but, if I read it correctly, they were not speaking even before the cancer diagnosis. Now, I agree that communication needs to be restored, but I read a lot of FEAR in that post. Probably a lot more going on there than we realize.

Ja na, please try to talk to your Mom. She needs you now. And, while you might not believe it, you need her, too!! This is a difficult, scary time. Believe me, I know. Maybe some family counseling would help restore communication between you and your Mom.

Best of luck to you and your Mom!