Amy P Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 In the car this evening my very intuative 7 yr old daughter asked me if God makes mistakes when he makes people? My youngest (5 going on 35) answered very matter of factly that she thinks he does a pretty good job. As I discussed this with my husband this evening, I realized that I didn't know how to answer. My first thought was No but then we talked about those individuals who do unspeakable things to others esp. defenseless children - could a mistake have let evil in that provoked them do those things? or is it freewill? Just some food for thought but I am VERY interested in hearing opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tess Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 God allowed it, (evil) and he doesn't make mistakes! He gives us free will and we do what we will. Someday we will know the answers. God is good. Tess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 AMY that is a hard one in some way's to explain.One must ask if these evil people started out life that way never knowing any other feeling and if so why did GOD allow it or why did he create this mind in this person.I personaly do not have a pat answer but what i do understand is all thing's initially are his creation and he has set forth a world designed to lead us to him or we can choose the worldly life and not his spiritual life he has in store for those who choose it.Christ maybe answered it best when he said"lay up no treasure's on earth but in heaven"Or one of my all time favorites what would it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his own soul.!! Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe B Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 God by His very nature is good and does not make mistakes. We are trying to understand very deep mystery's with human minds. we are not capable of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowflake Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Amy, Since you are dealing with a five year old, I doubt that quoting scriptures would explain anything to her... You CAN give her your thoughts (that you don't KNOW) and go from there. My thought would be if there can be people that seem to be angels in your life (odd strangers that come in at just the right moment to help you out), maybe there are also the opposite, those that come in to screw everything up. Laws of physics, ya know? To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.... I think God is different things to different people. Some believe in an all-powerful vengeful God, some believe in a benevolent God... Here's a thought - WHAT if the position of "God" is actually voted on in the Great Beyond? What if there are many peers to God, each with their own solar system or something like that, and there are elections held or it's a hierarchy or something and the position of God changes every millenium or so... That could explain how there was a God that would "toy" with Job (now THAT just wasn't right), a God that could split the Red Sea, but couldn't solve Moses' plight by just MOVING the Jews somewhere and NOT shedding so much blood... ...and what if the God of today were a lame duck God, just waiting for His/Her term to be over? There, Tuesday morning epiphany.... Hmmmm.... Gotta admit, kids ask good questions....the exasperating part is not knowing the answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimblanchard Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Of course God makes mistakes. In Genesis, looking out over creation at the time of Noah, God repents of having made mankind in the first place. In the story of Cain and Abel, God prefers the sacrifice of Abel to that of Cain, which leads at least indirectly to the murder of Abel. That is neither a crime nor his responsibility - after all, it was Cain who pulled the trigger - but I would characterize it a mistake. From the Christian perspective, I have argued before God made a mistake in the ten commandments, which is why Jesus narrowed them to six. Those commandments about establishing a particular religion - the sabbath, using the Lord's name in vain, etc. - are omitted in favor of the interpersonal commandments - do not kill, do not steal, love your neighbor as yourself. I think the idea of an imperfect, not all-knowing God is tremendously empowering. If God is perfect, what is the motivation to seek improvement in society? If a man is king, it is because God made him a king. And the same with a slave. If God is perfect and all-powerful, it is that way because it is part of his plan. And it will all work out in the end. I guess that is comforting, but it does little to inspire us to greater justice. But if God is not perfect, and if God is not all-powerful (and there is plenty of middle ground between more powerful than us and all-powerful, between more knowledgeable than us and all-knowing, and between more ethical than us and perfect), then evil can be explained as a mistake, something to be fixed. It is sin, missing the target. And so we and God take aim again and try to fix it. We no longer have to look at evil as part of a plan we cannot fathom, but can just call it evil and treat it as such. But mainly I agree with your youngest. God has done a pretty good job. And so have we. But there is much more to be done. Saddle up! Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Wood Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I believe that God doesn't make mistakes, even though I wonder sometimes if free will was a good idea. But He loves us that much to give us free will. I believe it is the free will that lets evil in, not the original creation. In Genesis, it states that everything God creates in good, and I believe that. We just have to own up to the fact that we don't do a very good job of earning His trust. Luckily, we don't have to earn it -- he just gives it to us over and over. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tess Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Right on Don! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Though free will sometimes seems like a bad idea, explore its opposite: puppetlike people, all the same. We have enough of that now in the world. People who only dare say or do or perhaps even think what they know to be safe. What kind of science would there be in a world like that. What kind of social justice? What kind of democracy? Sure our science is lacking, now. Sure we are nowhere near socioeconomic equity, and certainly our democracy is not perfect, but without free will I shudder to think of how this world might be. Perhaps no crime, perhaps no stupid human behavior, but I am not convinced that no free will would create a paradise. OK if it is a paradise perhaps it would be boring. But then again, perhaps I am looking at this only through my imperfect human eyes. See how easily I can confuse even myself. Which brings me to the question, just what IS heaven? The Bible really doesnt say. Since I already posted that I don't believe hell is a literal place, I must say I doubt heaven to be literal either. Although the thought of it being so pleases me and gives me hope--because I can only think in human terms as to what would please me--see my loved ones and wait for my other loved ones to have a kind of life like I have now only more perfect. I dont think that possible or probable. And since I have only human ways of relating things, I guess I believe life after death to be some kind of existence so very unlike what we now deem existence and so very much beyond what I can imagine it to be. When I think of it, I just come up empty-headed. I don't know. I just don't know. elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie Daughter of Bill Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Ditto what Don Wood said!! That's the way I feel and I couldn't have said it better than Don. Angie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 But if God created us, he also created free will, as Don says, he gave it to us as a gift. And if free will allows evil in as Don says, then by extension, God created evil. So if everything God created is good, then is evil good?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowflake Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Ah, Elaine....you'd have made a good Vulcan. Logic....(and I related to physics...LOL). There is truly no such thing is darkness, only an absence of light. Here, my friend, hold my candle (Cheryl still has my flashlight!)... Sometimes, as Amy is discovering, there truly is no answer...no way to fully prove or disprove something, sometimes the answer is "It just IS". I have heard that only people can get into Heaven - now tell me, how can it be Heaven if dogs (and even cats) aren't invited? I think many dogs are more worthy than some people....unconditional love isn't worthy of a seat at THE Master's table? Hmmmmm... ...and yet, SOME clergy take pains to explain to kids that pets DO go to Heaven, that God takes them in, as well... Go figure.... (In case I confused you as much as myself, I'm with you on this one, I've got your back! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stand4hope Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Ok, I guess I'm never going to get to bed tonight, but I just gotta reply to this one. I'm just a KISS person (Keep It Simple Stupid) and not a deep thinker like some of the others. I JUST BELIEVE! I believe that God is good and I don't understand where evil came from and don't think any of us can figure it out if we talked about it all night. I believe that there is a heaven and a hell because both are so eloquently described in the Bible, especially hell. I know, I know, here goes the old, but who wrote the Bible argument. I won't get into that one, but I can assure everyone that there are hundreds of scholars, and even atheists, who have devoted their lives to trying to disprove the Bible, and most have not only failed miserably, but many have been converted - one in particular that comes to mind is C.S. Lewis. I was listening to Christian radio one evening and a little girl (probably about 9 or 10) called in and asked the man why God didn't take all the bad people out of the world. The man very sweetly told her that if God took everything out of the world that was bad or had been bad that "He would have to take you and me, too, and everybody, and then there wouldn't be anybody left." He went on to explain this to her in more detail, but it really stuck with me. I agree with Don, too. Also, amen to this, Elaine: I guess I believe life after death to be some kind of existence so very unlike what we now deem existence and so very much beyond what I can imagine it to be. Love to all, Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stand4hope Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Had to log back on to add a p.s. All of this God talk and Bible talk is meaningless except to the person who is searching for God and for the truth, and according to the Bible, no one comes to Christ unless he is drawn to Him by the Father himself: "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus, Luke 11:9-10 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." Jesus, John 6:44 My point is, that all of this is poppycock to anyone who is not seeking to know the truth and to truly find God. There comes a time in many peoples' lives when they want to find God. They are being "drawn". The answers truly are not found in any books, advanced study, in-depth learning, or even in the Bible. You can read the Bible until you are blue in the face, but unless you are seeking to know and find God, it's just empty words. Our human logic will never settle the debate. Spock would never walk this path. The drawing and the knowing comes through the heart, not from a book. It's a feeling that cannot be explained unless experienced. It's a feeling that supercedes thought and logic. It makes you cry. It's like a burning fire inside your belly and you just KNOW. Been wanting to throw this in on all these threads, and finally just decided to do it. Love to all, Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I agree: there is no logic to it. Belief in God is just that, a belief I have, a strong sense of GOd being there, somewhere, in me, outside of me: God is. I can't prove it, but I know it. There is no book or anyone's talk that can convince me of what I have felt to be true. But for me Peggy, though I love the Bible as I do other books, I don't find all my answers there either. I know the verse, "Seek and ye shall find." I don't know why I keep finding something different than what others find. Surely I have sought and seek. I am not saying you are wrong or I am right. I am just saying that I hope God understands my search. We agreed once that Jesus was a person. I believe he was. I believe he is a person who shows me how I ought to live and how I ought to face suffering of all kinds, not just death. I believe most readily that through Jesus I can understand this life better and that through him I can come to find God. One of the most powerful quotes in the Bible comes when Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why hast though forsaken me." I cried everytime I heard this BEFORE my DX. If that line doesn't prove the humaness of Jesus, then what does? Perhaps my metaphorical belief will grant me God's grace, because what I keep coming to is this: Through Jesus, I learned to seek forgiveness, I learned right from wrong, I learned many things, too numerous to mention. I also learned that I am but one of a million kinds of people or other living things that will be a part of the kingdom of God. Some of them may have never heard of the word Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bean_si (Not Active) Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 There would first have to be an interpretation as to whether whatever action was/is a mistake. People envision God as a supreme being - better than we are. So which one of us would make the judgment as to whether something God did was a mistake? If we could do that - judge God - then we would be wiser than God and God would not be a supreme being. God would not be God. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stand4hope Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Oooh, Cat. That was good. That was very good! Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brm1949 Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 OK, I'll just throw this out there, Job 38 to the end. Seems like God has a few questions for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvmydog2 Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I agree Peggy. Your post was good Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Well I must agree with Cat. It's not up to me to or any human to "judge God"--but I also know that in the Bible God does question his own judgement and that God seems to go through dramatic "personality" changes. elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimblanchard Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Okay, a couple of points. Peggy, I do not know what you mean by disproving the bible, but there are clearly errors and inconsistencies in it. A simple example is the description of a table in Solomon's temple, which is described as circular with a diameter of 20 cubits and a circumference of 60 cubits. In order for that to be correct, the value of pi would have to equal 3 exactly, and not the 3.14.... mathematics has shown it to equal. Another inconsistency concerns Jesus's final words on the cross: Matthew and Mark report, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" while Luke reports, "Into your hand I commend my spirit," and John reports simply, "It is finished." It is not possible for all of them to be historical. There are greater truths than either logical or historical truths, to be sure, but to characterize all attempts to disprove the Bible as failures seems wrong. There are literal and historical innacurracies. But the main reason I wanted to post is to defend the role of logic in faith. The greatest gift we have been given is consciousness, the ability not just to live but to be aware of our lives and to be able to be ethical actors. And logic is the language of consciousness. So to repulse logic in any area of our existence is to refuse to employ our greatest faculty. Love God, Jesus commands, with our whole heart and our whole mind. (Body and soul, too) No, it is the faith without logic that seems shallow to me. Ok, now I am venturing into a discussion of the spiritual lives of fictional beings, but Spock did walk this road. And so did Data, the android, who both constantly used their logic to determine if there was greater meaning to existence. Their searches were limited by their characteristics, the same way our search is limited by our own limitations. But I don't think their searches were fundamentally different than our own. If we are to seek God with the completeness of our beings, that must include the limits of our logic as well. Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Wood Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Free will is not evil -- it is the choices we sometime make that are evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Agreed, Don, but I did say, "by extension." --I guess it's why they call it the "Great Mystery." Though sometimes in the face of certain beauty, it has all seemed so simple... and then as soon as I have tried to grasp the simplicity in order to put thought or word to it, it disappears... elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy P Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 I never imagined I would get such responses - Thank You!!! I love reading everyone's opinions as I know that religion can be a very touchy subject! This discussion has helped me sooo much as I have always (more often recently) struggled with faith - not with the existence of God or Jesus etc for in that area I truly do believe. Where I have trouble is the theory that all sins are equal - Mom says that I need to have faith. I have real trouble understanding that telling a lie is equal to raping a small child - it defies my logic which is admittedly sometimes screwy and I often err to the black and white (gray is hard for an accountant to see). Anyway, not trying to stir the pot but rather wanted thank you all for giving me some much needed food for thought about faith!!! You all are wonderful people and I am so fortunate to have found this site where ideas are openly shared and discussed. BTW - I did simplify some of the posts and share some them with Audrey - she was very intrigued and promptly asked me if all people were bad luckily I could tell her about free will and making good choices...I think I need to get her back to church so someone other than me can anwer all these deep questions I may have philosopher on my hands!!! and Lord help me then (no disrespect intended) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jana_W Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 This has been a very interesting read, I must say. However I feel compelled to say that I do not believe in any way that telling a lie is similar to raping a small child. I certainly know which person I would prefer to meet, and which person I would prefer to be. Jana xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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