MomsGirl
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Kim,
I'm sorry this reply is late - somehow I missed your post...
I just want to give you a big hug, I cannot imagine the pain you are in. My dad is just starting down that road and it hurts bad enough now. I think about you often and wonder how you are doing.
I don't know what else to say, I know opening that bag of memories is like torture, I know...
I'm so sorry, it just sucks - wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and sending you cyberhugs.
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Judy-
"I believe people behave (outrageously) the way they do because other people allow them to."
YES! I agree 100%. That is just what I said to my sister last night. As long as Dad doesn't have accountability, or is at least put on notice, he will continue on to new levels.
Katie and Judy, I really like your idea of a plan. The way his brain works really requires something that is entirely UN-ambiguous.
Thank you!
PS - Katie, I remember all that you went through and continue to go through with your family, and it amazes me you are still standing. You are inspiring, that's for sure...
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Val, thank you, I always think of you when I go through this stuff. Sadly, you are a step ahead in the process each time. Reading what happened with your mother-in-law sounds so familiar, I've heard it time and time again. My father-in-law and his new wife (like yours, not maliciously) had a yard sale. (One of the neighbors actually rescued some of the things that the grandchildren had given my husband's mom, bless her heart.) After the yard sale, they went through drawers and threw out precious family papers that his mom had saved for years, including his parents' 55-year-old handwritten wedding program, very old handwritten poetry from his grandmother and saddest of all, a loving Mother's Day letter from my husband's 23-year-old uncle written right before he died in a tank explosion in World War II. Precious, precious family heirlooms. My heart aches just thinking about the loss of that WWII letter.
Sharon - my dad is 75. I don't know what to say about guilt. My dad did the song and dance about feeling a little guilty when he took his ring off (oh wait, it wouldn't come off so he had my cousin saw it off). But as far as guilt over anything he said to my mom, etc...nope. That's the kicker, he is oblivious to all of this and thinks he is the noble widower. The bad things he said to her were mostly related to my mom losing it over him refusing to build the porch she wanted on her lake house (or should I say ignoring her pleading requests and continuing to read the newspaper). I still find it inexcusable. It was so bad that I honestly believe if my mom wasn't so sick, she would have left him. But he has conveniently edited all of that out, like he always does.
The hardest part of all of this is that he was/is a great dad, he loves my kids and they love him, he just came over yesterday to watch the older ones while I took my sister to the doctor. It would be so much easier if he were crappy all around, but he's not. Yet if we have this conversation with him, I'm convinced it will go in one ear and out the other. My sister and I agreed though, even if he retains 10% of it, it would be worth having the conversation.
Like I said, I just don't know what to do...
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Thank you all so much for the insight and advice. I really have taken a lot of it to heart - some of it I already knew but needed affirmation, and some of it gave me new insight. I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and experiences.
The last few days since I wrote the post have been tough - my dad has been on about five dates with someone, and my beloved sister Deb just had a baby girl 12 days ago. She's having a hard recovery physically, so that makes things more emotional with missing Mom at this special time. However, my brave and blunt little sister (Deb) pretty much opened up the floodgates last night on the phone with Dad when he started talking about this woman, etc. He asked if he could bring this woman to Deb's house that night, b/c she just "loves babies". My sister was shocked - she hasn't even taken her baby to the cemetery yet. My sister said no, she was not ready for that, then she took the reins and told Dad that when Mom was sick in the hospital, she told Deb she knew Dad would find someone else quickly b/c he couldn't be alone and take care of himself. My mom also said that she wanted Debbie to make sure nothing happened to our family like what happened in my husband's family (with heirlooms, etc). (Please keep in mind, my parents did not have the best marriage, and my dad was kind of helpless and yes, cruel at times when she was sick.) Dad said, oh no, he wasn't giving anything away. Who says that's the only way it can leave the house?
Deb also mentioned to Dad that he should be careful about jumping into things so fast with someone he met on the internet and knows nothing about, etc. And many other upfront things - like that he never liked the lake house when Mom was alive, always gave her a hard time about spending the summer there...yet now it's the greatest place on earth, and if he took someone else up there and acted like it was this great resort, it would be a slap in the face to us three girls.
As usual, not much of a reaction from Dad - he filtered out what he wanted to hear and turned it to his liking. Ex- "Mom said she knew you'd find someone else b/c you couldn't be alone and take care of yourself." Normal person's reaction, based on their marital history: maybe a little guilt, shame, sadness, self-examination, introspection. Dad's mental interpretation: green light! Permission from Mom to find someone else and quickly - off the hook from guilt.
How do I know this? Because after Deb told him all this, he appeared on her doorstep the next night to return her dogs he'd been babysitting, and proceeded to sit down, have many drinks and talk for FOUR hours about this new person - how they salsa danced in my parents' kitchen, how she cooked him dinner with all those (formerly useless, but now great) pans Mom had. Despite my sister's poor physical condition, precarious emotional state, and what she had said the night before, he just plowed right on in.
I know I sound like a big b-tchy downer. But there are so many other mitigating circumstances here, it just kills me, it's not just about older guy finds new love. I guess it's about how he treated his OLD love. I need to realize truly that he just DOESN'T GET IT. And no matter what you say, he refuses to GET IT. However, it doesn't stop me from being physically ill over this on a daily basis - my stress level is through the roof, and the grief is back with a vengeance. And I just can't let him off the hook because he "doesn't get it". And now that I know this person my dad barely knows is in the house among all of Mom's things...I'm just completely freaked.
My older sister and I are going to talk to him this weekend about heirlooms and the lake house. I will take a lot of the advice I got from you guys to heart. Thanks so much....
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See new post...
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I'm so very sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers go out to you tonight.....
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Here's to your wonderful dad and the love he gave to his family...hugs going out to you tonight...
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Thanks Katie, I totally know what you mean. And most of what I speak of is heirloom-y type stuff, things that Mom inherited from her mom and that she treasured, trinkets, special pieces of furniture, stuff like that. As far as the actual house, other stuff, the money, all that - it's all Dad's, absolutely they worked hard for it, and I tell him every day to just spend it, you can't take it with you.
I guess I've seen so many examples of it going to the extreme, I'm just very concerned. I know my husband kind of waited it out when his dad started dating and remarried, and in the end some very sentimental things went his stepmom's sons...nothing of high value, but things that meant a lot to him....
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Hi all,
I'm just beside myself right now and I need some advice. I know some of you that have lost parents have experienced the loss of their memories, their possessions, etc...whether it be through unsavory relatives, new spouses to the remaining parent, etc...
I have two sisters and two brothers. The brothers live out of town and don't give a hoot about any family heirlooms, possessions, etc. It's pretty much my sisters and me that care about this stuff, and we all live within the same metro area as my dad.
The issue is...my dad has started dating, which I can't really deal with, but oh well, it's his life. It's not something we talk about b/c, well, I can't deal with it! My sisters feel the same way. Having said that, we all see my dad regularly, everything is "normal", per say.
Dad has already had us go through certain things early on - Mom's jewelry, clothes - but there are still a lot of precious things in the house. Porcelein knick-knacks, our grandmother's cherry furniture, Mom's dining room set, their wedding crystal, etc. Dad makes a lot of noise about moving and downsizing, but he's a talker and not a doer (except in the dating world, it seems). He has mentioned us going through more stuff and seems very open to us taking whatever to get it off his hands...but he won't make decisions as to what exactly he wants us to take. It's hard to split beloved items between three girls unless you know what is being offered. The bottom line is he has no emotional attachment to any of it. Before my mom died, he never paid any attention to it - now, I hear him saying things like, "You girls are aware of what a da-n nice crystal set that is, aren't you?" He's very into the material value of things now that he is dating - he actually told me that he was "hot property" among the local women, etc.
I could go on and on and on...but I'll try to cut to the chase. Today he mentioned he had a dentist app't to get teeth pulled and when I asked if he needed a ride home he said he had a ladyfriend that will take him home. I finally opened my eyes to the fact that he is bringing total strangers into this house, people he's met on the internet. I'm sure this woman could be perfectly nice, but who knows, quite frankly? My husband's stepmom was lovely and caring, but in the end she got rid of a lot of stuff without notifying anyone, much of it going to her own children.
Honestly, this is not about us being moneygrubbing kids waiting for an inheritance, it is about our love for our mother and all of her heirlooms and legacies, which she made CLEAR she wanted to go to us. And don't get me started on the lake house thing (I wrote about that before) - I could use some advice on that too.
How do we do this? How do we present it to my dad? I know he probably won't be unwilling to part with the smaller things or maybe even the crystal and stuff...but we can't waltz in there and take half the furniture. Who knows, maybe he'd be open to that, too...
I would appreciate any advice on any of this. Literal advice as to how to approach him, b/c we are definitely going to approach him. As far as advice on how to deal with this and whether I'm handling the dating part of things correctly - well, I've seen my husband go through it (and he was a saint), and I can't change the way I feel right now - so probably advice on that end of things will just make me cry and feel bad! So...advice on the daughter-dad talk would be welcome....
PS- I should mention that about seven years ago, my (now deceased) father-in-law remarried and handed over everything to his new wife - my dad has heard me vent my sadness over this and how it affected my husband. He always sits there nodding his head in agreement, and since my mom has died has pledged that he won't give anything away and that it all belongs to us. But I've seen too many older men (including on my father-in-law and some dads on this website) just lose any of that sensibility when they are in a new relationship. I just don't trust that my dad will remain so sure in all of this...but much, much more than that is the fact that someone may come in and TAKE the stuff, or target my dad and have friends that will take the stuff when they are out, etc. My dad is gone most of the summer. I know this is dramatic, but it happens a lot, esp. to people that dangle their possessions on the internet, etc...
Thanks you guys, so much.
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Yes, I think you did the right thing! You needed to see that closure with the kids, your mom knew they were there and it probably helped her to be at peace hearing them and feeling their touch one last time. And quite honestly, if you are worried about the kids and the effect on them...they won't remember. My kids were 5 and 3 years old at the time, and now at 7 and almost 5, they don't remember going to see her. I don't know if that is good or bad - in many ways it breaks my heart, but also they are not traumatized in any way.
I am SO glad I did it, my mom was ready to leave the hospital to go to the hospice center, they had given her a few weeks to live...but I just had this FEELING, I knew I had to get the kids in NOW. She only lived another three days after that, and I know I would have regretted not bringing them. My mom was in this semi-conscious state, her eyes closed and responding here and there...but when my five-year-son (who was her little soulmate) leaned over her bed and hugged her and said "I love you, Nana", she reached her arm out over his back and said "I love you too, Babydoll"...that moment will forever be etched in my mind and heart. Yes, I am crying right now just thinking of it, but I have no regrets.
I also want you to know that the stage you are in now, it's so similar to where I was at that time. Your grief is at the point where you are questioning everything, fixating on details, events, etc...I know how painful that is and I'm so sorry you are going through it. But I wanted you to know that it's so normal (I hate to use that word, b/c there is nothing "normal" about losing your mom...hopefully you know what I mean). Your post struck such a chord with me, this all just sucks, quite frankly.
Hang in there, you did all the right things and your mother loves you dearly, she knows you did everything you could to bring her peace. Bringing your children in, as hard as it was, was actually the most unselfish thing you could have done, especially at that age. Be kind to yourself, the very fact that you are worrying about all of this shows what a good and loving mom you are.
Hang in there...
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What SarahUK said about "How does life go on?" really got me thinking....
A year and a half ago the center of our family, the reason for our existence, the anchor in our worlds, the love of our lives, our MOM...she left this world. Life stopped for all of us.
Yet...I cannot believe the things that have happened since then...and the hand that my mom had in many of these events. I gave birth to my beautiful son, who came as a bit of a surprise after a few failed pregnancies and no plans for more. He came into being soon after my mom was diagnosed, and lived inside me during the most physically and emotionally devastating time of my life. Yet here he is, he made it. I believe he is a gift from my mom, from God...as someone here said, God sent me this baby because he knew he was going to take Mom...
My sister Deb, who has been a single mom for 16 years and still was when my mom died a year and a half ago...since then she has fallen in love, gotten married and had a baby girl. The guy she married is a friend of my parents that has a lake house up the road from my mom's lake house. He and his twin brother were long-time bachelors that loved my parents, and my mom was always said that my sister should end up with him, he was perfect for her. Every summer when my sister was vacationing up there, my mom would encourage her to hang out with him, etc...my mom was so funny. Well, when my mom was sick, my sister and this guy corresponded as friends about Mom's illness, and after the funeral it quickly turned romantic...they married less than a year after we lost Mom, and Deb just gave birth to a beautiful little girl, whose middle name is Dianne, like my mom. My mother would be THRILLED, this is all she wanted for Deb and more. I know how much it hurts my sister that she is not here to see it.
All in all, amongst the kids and grandkids, we've had two engagements, two weddings, one high school graduation, two college graduations and two babies. In only a year and a half. All since that lifechanging day in July 2006.
So yeah, I guess life does go on...even if it feels like we are going through the motions sometimes...I try to remember that my mom would want us to go on and live our lives, this is what she prepared us to do our whole lives, to be as strong as she was...but I don't think I am. Watching my sister holding her newborn baby in the hospital made me so happy, but it made me want to pound on the wall and scream at the same time.
To top off the "full circle" theme, my sister had her baby in the same hospital my mom was in when she was sick. I thought it would be really hard, but the maternity floor is a much happier place than the cancer floor. While my sister was in labor I went out to the little garden where I had run to a year and a half earlier after hearing my mom was going to hospice. I sat on the stone bench and thought about those moments, how utterly life destroying they were...but I didn't cry. I thought about how my mom was always so thrilled when they played Brahm's Lullaby over the loudspeaker in the hospital b/c another baby was born. That's what it's all about, right? The circle of life....and here I was witnessing it firsthand. I sat there and talked to Mom for a while, thanked her for all the gifts she had given us and went back inside to wait for my beautiful niece to enter his world....
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Oh, I'm so very sorry to hear of the loss of your precious mom...
I have no comforting answers for you...life will go on, and you will go through so many emotions in the next few years. You will be amazed every day that you are still standing. We as humans are stronger than I could ever imagine, that is something I have learned through the loss of my mom, and the through the people on this website.
I'm just so sorry for you, I know how you feel. Warm thoughts and lots of prayers going your way...
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I'm so very sorry - thoughts and prayers going out to you today....
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Wow Randy, Happy Anniversary! What a beautiful picture...and may the beautiful memories fill your heart with peace...
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Sarah McLachlan - "I Will Remember You" and "In the Arms of the Angels"
Rod Stewart - "Have I Told You Lately"
Josh Groban - "You Raise Me Up"
Green Day - "Time of Your Life"
They all make me think of my mom and they all make me cry....
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Here I am again, Ms. Crankypants of the month. Lamenting my way through the forum...
But I keep thinking this and have to ask...will I ever be truly happy again? I mean happy like in a complete sense. Like Val, Katie and others have said many times...it's not that you are never happy, or that you don't go along with your life and have happy days, moments, etc...or you are joyless day and night...but will this hole in my chest every close up?
As many of us know, there are two camps; Those Who Have Lost a Parent and Those Who Have Not. My two best friends have moms as special as mine, and they are very close to them, they appreciate them, they depend on them to be there, to love their children, to pick up the phone when they call to chat, vent, share joy or sadness. Yet would it be remotely useful for me to take them aside and tell them dramatically to treasure of every moment of this life NOW, life with Mom in this world. That after Mom is gone, you won't be sobbing every day for the rest of your life, but your world will never, ever be the same, in so many more ways than you can ever imagine. Is it fair to even make them think about it? I know before I lost my mom, I never took her for granted, even thinking about losing her was...well...unthinkable. So I know they get that, but...
I'm just feeling selfish and a little bitter tonight, once again. I think it's my dad - he is suddenly worried about things like, for example, his personal hygiene (which he never worried about much when my mom was alive, much to her disgust)...and worrying about many other things he didn't really care about when Mom was around...and I figured out it's pretty much b/c of a lovely fact my sister recently shared with me - he's shopping himself around on the internet as a fairly well-off eligible bachelor. Yeah, Dad, that's the way to attract sensitive, safe women that will want you for you! Just post on there that you have an (albeit inexpensive) sports car, boat, lake house (oh, I'm sorry, that little lake house was my mom's, in her home state, where her family and friends were on the same lake road, where we grew up every summer, but you always resented it. But now it's the crown jewel in your chick-bait treasure chest!) Yes, I'm bitter. I love my dad very dearly, he is a great dad and wonderful grandfather...but he was a often a crappy husband.
My mom wasn't perfect and she was feisty, and their marriage was never great, but he hurt her so deeply in the months before she died by denying her the one thing she wanted (an enclosed porch on the lake house, it was something she latched onto as a goal to live for, to follow the progress and to sit on it and watch the sunsets that summer)...it's the only time in my life I've seen my fiery, self-starting mom beg and cry for something, b/c she was too sick and weak to do the logistics herself...and he ignored her and then when she got really, really angry at him and lost it, he said some despicable, totally untrue things to her, which is surprising, b/c usually the silent treatment was his M.O. I think that is the moment she gave up, meaning gave up on life. She sensed how stressed and distraught over this porch issue my sisters and I were and how we were fighting for her, and she did not want to put us through this anymore. She was truly the most unselfish person I have ever known. And the reality is that the minute my mom got sick, my dad was so scared and paralyzed that he just shut off his brain and started waiting for her to die. He is not a fighter by nature, so he couldn't deal. And I think not doing the porch was a big power play on his part..he finally had some control over my mom...God, that is hard to say or even think.
So YEAH, there might be a little bitter water under the bridge, I'll admit it! And my sisters and I can't acknowledge him dating, for obvious reasons but also for what happened with the lake house (I know I'll get flack for that, please please don't bother, it won't change my feelings, sorry!). But if he brought anyone to that lake house, I seriously think we would freak out on him. It is truly a sacred place to my sisters and me. We spent every summer of our young lives there, and we spent at least two weeks a summer up there with our own kids every year...and in my life of 41 years, a summer has never passed when I haven't made the seven-hour trek up north to the lake. To go and pick berries with my mom, and to plant flowers at her parents' grave in town, to take long walks on the dirt road by the lake with her, to sit out and watch the beautiful sunsets, to hang out with her cousins, second cousins, third cousins, aunts, uncles, etc...to watch her lay out big flat rocks and jars of paint on the back porch for my kids... That place is truly part of our most treasured memories, and it is our mom's legacy to us - she was very clear on that always. There is nothing on this earth that is more HER than that little house, and nothing that means more to us (my sisters and me...my brothers don't really care about it).
Believe it or not, all is okay now, we are appreciating the fact that our dad is here on this earth and we love him and our kids love him, and we see him often...and there's no talking to him about all this bad stuff b/c he just doesn't acknowledge negative things like that. He just shuts down. Unfortunately in our family things have to come to a head and then explode....
So I guess went way in a direction I didn't mean it too...whoops. So much for the short explanation of my initial topic.
So, to our friends out there that have been without a parent long-term...can you give me your insight? Thanks everyone.
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Thanks so much, everyone, for your insight. It really helped. And Nick, what you wrote about the afterlife, it really, really spoke to me. You said things I never really considered, more big picture stuff that really makes sense. Thank you.
I do believe in God, my mother believed in God, my family believes in God...I guess when I say I have doubts about the afterlife, I guess I don't really mean it. I'm just so cranky and cynical about that since I lost her. Frankly, it's unbearable to think she no longer exists on any plane of consciousness...
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Oh, Mom...
in GRIEF
Erin,
All I can say is I know...I KNOW.
(((ERIN)))
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I'm a little late in responding to this, so I assume you are elbow-deep going through your mom's things as I write this. I hope that your sisters were able to provide some support for you, and vice versa. I have two sisters and those kinds of tasks would have been so much more difficult without them. I'm in awe of the people on this board that go it alone on these types of things.
All I can say is I know how hard this is. You might find, though, that it's a little easier with your dad in an apartment so those memories in the house aren't so painful. Certainly, letting go of the house is brutal...and I haven't had to do that yet...but I actually find the house very difficult to be in. Just me.
Hang in there, let us know how things went...
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Teri,
I remember when I read of Bill's passing, I went back and read many of his posts (I was pretty much in the "Grief" forum and not following any of the other forums). I remember thinking how hard it was to believe that this incredibly articulate, warm, insightful (and yes, funny!) person was no longer with us. What a blessing to have his words and his insights for all to see.
Thanks for sharing...
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What a wonderful gesture to honor your mom, and at the same time help others too. It's good to hear from you, and I'm so glad to hear you doing well. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!
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Hi Val,
I just wrote a long response and then accidentally deleted it...darn it!
The gist of what I wrote was that I agree with you - I think it was entirely inappropriate for her to pass judgement on anyone who is grieving, and then to go on and say essentially that she will manage it better and that we ALL should. She has ZERO clue, and sadly she will have a clue when she loses her mom or a loved one. And if she is able to not "have trouble with it" and believe it's God's will, etc....well, then..Amen, sister! I'm all for that. But to speak of something in such a superior tone that frankly, you know nothing about, and judge people for it...naah.
I think you should let her know, in a constructive criticism sort of way, that her comments were inappropriate and uninformed. I'm trying to give her a little pass b/c she seems a bit naive, yet feels a bit superior with her title, and obviously has deep faith...but come on. That's one of those you write, re-read, and hit delete.
Hang in there, Val...
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Will, I am so very, very sorry. Your deep love for Diana showed in your posts - you were so blessed to have each other. My thoughts and prayers go out to you this night...
(((Will)))
This up and down is sickening
in GRIEF
Posted
Barb,
You are not alone in your thinking...sometimes the pain is so great it doesn't seem bearable in this life. And sometimes, others just don't understand.
I'm just sorry you are feeling this way, just know we feel your pain.
((((BARB))))