lilyjohn
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Sense it is obvious that this is not going to just go away I have some words to add to what Pamela has said.
I would be more inclined to believe that Michael is trying to do what Terri wanted if he hadn't waited so long. Being very close to 3 situations that were similar I know that there had to be dozens of times over the years when she could have been let die. If it was her wish to not be kept alive like she is why was she not just let die?
When asked to remove life support from my brother I only agreed when it was made clear that in no circumstances would fluids and nutrition be removed. The doctors never suggested it, of coarse that could have been because one of my brothers told them that if they tried he would throw them out the window!
A question I have to ask is how much did Terri being alive affect the law suit? What life expectancy was used to determine the settlement? These are valid questions that no one asks or answers.
I think it is a shame that Florida does not allow divorce in this kind of situation. I see no wrong in Michael wanting to make another life for himself. Just don't stand there and say that he has devoted his life to Terri. I seriouly doubt that his mind was on her when he was making not one but two children with another woman!
As I have said before I do not advocate the right to die nor do I advocate against it. There is a big difference between letting someone die and chosing the time, place and way a person will die for them. Those things are only done in two circumstances, execution and murder. Sense Terri has not been convicted of a crime this can not be seen as an execution. That leaves only one word for what is happening to her.
It is very sad that somewhere along the way Terri got lost in the crossfire. Saddly she has stopped being a living breathing human being and became an issue. THAT is the saddest thing of all.
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Have they tried Marinol for the nausia? That is supposed to work really well and help with appitite too.
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It sounds very much like your dad was treated the same as Johnny was. This just points out that even when you think you have taken all precations things can still be manipulated.
As I have said in previous posts I don't say these things to frighten people or to make them feel guilty about things that they really had no control over. It is so easy to question and blame yourself for things you did or didn't do. The problem is that those things come up so quickly and we have been trained all of our lives to trust that doctors will "do no harm". I suspect that most people don't know that doctors are no longer required to swear to that.
I really believe that there is a growing trend to rid our population of those who others decide have no quality of life. The problem is who can honestly judge another's quality of life? Johnny had had a lot of heartbreak in his life and he overcame it all. If they would have bothered to ask he would have told them that dispite his medical problems his quality of life was the best it had ever been.
I do not advocate the "right to die" neither do I advocate against it. Who knows how they will feel when and if the choice between death and suffering becomes something immediate instead of something in the distant future as we all think?
What I do advocate is a person's right to chose. I have seen that those rights no longer seem to matter. When I filed complaints with the medical board against the doctors and hospital envolved in Johnny's death I learned some very frightening things. Everyone of them were questioned to make sure that he had recieved the booklet stating his rights. Not one time were they interested in the fact that those rights were denied him. They actually admitted what was done to him but excused it because he had been diagnosed with Lung Cancer. It seems that when a person is diagnosed with Lung Cancer they are considered no longer deserving of thier rights
It is very upsetting to realize that medical boards made up of doctors and nurses have the power to decide that a person's life and rights no longer matter. Politicians harp about Mal Practice suits causing the price of insurance and medical care to go up. What they don't tell you is that many people who file suit do it out of desperation because it is the only avenue they have to try and get justice. I was told by an attorny that she gets complaints about things like what happened to Johnny all of the time. She also told me that when taken to court all a doctor has to do is say "he had lung cancer and was going to die anyway". It seems that a Lung Cancer diagnosis has become a licence to ignore a person's rights and to kill.
People can call me paranoid or say that I am too forceful in my opinions. If that is what it takes to save one person the agony that I have lived through or the heartless way Johnny was treated it is worth anything I do and anything anyone says about me.
The truth is these things happen everyday. Until people stand up for their rights or the rights of their loved ones it will not only continue to happen but get worse and more flagrant. It is very hard to fight the system but if we don't try we are helping the "right to die" become a "duty to die". I for one can not sit on the sidelines and let that happen without doing all I can to stop it. That is why I tell Johnny's story. That is why I am so insistant. Believe me when I say doing these things is not easy because each time I raise this issue I have to relive not only the memories but the images of those last days.
I ask anyone who has had an experience similar to ours to make your story public. Information is a tool that we can all use. Expreince can teach so use your heartache to reach out to others. If we can stop these things from happening to just one person it will be a first step. How can they ever hope to find a cure when they don't give people a real chance to live long enough to see what a natural outcome would be?
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THE BIRTH OF THE SONG "PRECIOUS LORD"
Back in 1932 I was 32 years old and a fairly new husband.
My wife, Nettie and I were living in a little apartment on Chicago's
Southside. One hot August afternoon I had to go to St. Louis, where I was to be the featured soloist at a large revival meeting.
I didn't want to go.
Nettie was in the last month of pregnancy with our first child.
But a lot of people were expecting me in St. Louis. I kissed Nettie
good-bye, clattered downstairs to our Model A and, in a fresh Lake
Michigan breeze, chugged out of Chicago on Route 66.
However, outside the city, I discovered that in my anxiety at leaving, I had forgotten my music case. I wheeled around and headed back.
I found Nettie sleeping peacefully.
I hesitated by her bed; something was strongly telling me to stay.
But eager to get on my way, and not wanting to disturb Nettie, I shrugged off the feeling and quietly slipped out of the room with my music.
The next night, in the steaming St. Louis heat, the crowd called on me to sing again and again.
When I finally sat down, a messenger boy ran up with a Western Union telegram.
I ripped open the envelope.
Pasted on the yellow sheet were the words: YOUR WIFE JUST DIED.
People were happily singing and clapping around me, but I could hardly keep from crying out.
I rushed to a phone and called home.
All I could hear on the other end was "Nettie is dead. Nettie is dead."
When I got back, I learned that Nettie had given birth to a boy.
I swung between grief and joy.
Yet that night, the baby died.
I buried Nettie and our little boy together, in the same casket. Then I fell apart.
For days I closeted myself.
I felt that God had done me an injustice. I didn't want to serve Him any more or write gospel songs.
I just wanted to go back to that jazz world I once knew so well.
But then, as I hunched alone in that dark apartment those first sad days,
I thought back to the afternoon I went to St. Louis.
Something kept telling me to stay with Nettie.
Was that something God?
Oh, if I had paid more attention to Him that day, I would have stayed and been with Nettie when she died.
From that moment on I vowed to listen more closely to Him.
But still I was lost in grief. Everyone was kind to me, especially a
friend, Professor Fry, who seemed to know what I needed.
On the following Saturday evening he took me up to Malone's Poro College, a neighborhood music school. It was quiet; the late evening sun crept through the curtained windows.. I sat down at the piano, and my hands began to browse over the keys.
Something happened to me then. I felt at peace.
I felt as though I could reach out and touch God.
I found myself playing a melody, one into my head-they just seemed to fall into place:
Precious Lord, take my hand,
lead me on, let me stand!
I am tired, I am weak,
I am worn, Through the storm,
through the night lead me on to the light,
Take my hand, precious Lord, Lead me home.
The Lord gave me these words and melody, He also healed my spirit.
I learned that when we are in our deepest grief, when we feel farthest from God, this is when He is closest, and when we are most open to His restoring power.
And so I go on living for God willingly and joyfully, until that day comes when He will take me and gently lead me home.
-Tommy Dorsey
Did you know that Tommy Dorsey wrote this song? You "younsters" may not know that Tommy Dorsey was the leader of one of the Bib Bands during the 30s, 40s and 50s.
What a wonderful story of how God can heal the brokenhearted.
P.S. Beautiful isn't it??
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Grief is a physical pain just as it is emotional. It takes a toll on your body. It is always hard to know how to help someone when you see them suffering. Telling them that it will get better doesn't help that much because when we are hurting so deeply we can't believe that the pain will ever be less. My only suggestion is that you be available when she needs you and give her space and time to grieve when she needs it. Sometimes the only thing that can get us past those first gut wrenching months is to allow ourselves to be totaly swallowed by our grief for a while.
There are no easy answers. Each person is different and each person grieves differently. In my case I wanted people around me then when I had them I wanted to be alone. It took me a very long time to get to a point where I could face each day without that pure torture that comes when we lose someone so much a part of us.
The answer for me was meditating and prayer. After nearly two and a half years I have found some peace but it is not a sure thing. There are still days when I want to cover my head and forget that I am still alive. I try to live one day at a time and one minute at a time. Looking at a future without Johnny is just too frightening so I miss him today and don't think about the days ahead. Each day I just ask God to give me what I need to get through this day. So far that has helped me.
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Recent events have made people more aware of how important it is the make and Advanced Directive. This is certainly a good idea but one that a person needs to understand the legalities of.
Because a DNR is the one part of a Living Will or Advanced Directive most people hear about they do not realize that there is much more to it. This can be not only misleading but dangerous.
An Advanced Directive gives you the oportunity to state exactly what you do and do not want and under what circumstances. Signing a blank DNR is really not the best idea. That will mean that under no circumstances will you be revived if your heart should stop or you should stop breathing. There are many cases where a person needs their heart restarted and goes on to live a long and normal life. The same is true for a ventilator. There are instances where a ventilator is needed only temorarily especially in the case of drug overdose.
When a person makes an Advanced Directive they should make it very spacific. There is another part of the Advanced Directive that is just as important and that is a Durable Power of Attorny. That is a person that you appoint to see to it that your wishes are carried out. They are not charged with making decisions for you unless you are not spacific enough.
The person you appoint should be someone you trust to fight not only to see that your wishes are carried out but that you recieve all of your rights as a patient. They should know what those rights are and know who to call on if they find that your rights are being denied you.
If you do not chose a Durable Power of Attorny there is a spacific legal order of who will be responsible to make decisions for you. If you are married your spouse has that right. If you are not married it falls to your oldest child and if he or she is not available it goes to the next. After the children the parents have the responsibility then to siblings.
If none of the above is available or if you have not chosen anyone the doctors make all decisions for you. Naturally this only comes into play when you are not able to make your own decisions but the catch here is that the doctors are the ones who decide if you are capable of making your own health care decisions. It can fall to the courts if you dispute with the doctor but that can be long and drawn out. Many things can happen to you during the time of dispute. It is important to know too that there are some drugs that can make a person seem incapable in less than five minutes.
It is very important that everyone know their rights and the value of an Advanced Directive. Some people have someone who would get responsibility for them that they would not want to have it. The only way to be certain is to chose someone you trust and do it legally.
Patient's rights are not always made clear but there are a few that are well known that everyone should be aware of. They are the right of Informed Consent. The right to not be restrained either physically or by drugs. The right to privacy and the right to be treated with respect. You also have the right to refuse any treatment without giving a reason and you can not be denied care because of that refusal. These are just some of your Patient's rights. Knowing them is important but believe me I saw first hand that those rights are not always followed. That is why eveyone should not only know what they are but who to contact when one of those rights is denied or abused.
I'm sure there are others who know even more about this subject than I do. I just want to make sure that people are aware and protect themselves to the best of their ability. These issues do not go away and most people will have to face them at some point in their lives.
Just remember knowledge is power!
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As a cargiver I am in contact with many people. Part of my work is through the county and the other part through a private agency named Home Helpers. The local chapter of Home Helpers was started here late last summer. The owner is a young compassionate business woman and because of that and the need her number of clients and caregivers has steadily increased.
At our last monthly employee meeting I mentioned this message board and how much it offers to those who have been touched by Lung Cancer. Everyone was really interested and most know someone who could use the support and information found here. In our next monthly news letter there will be a small artical about this message board along with the address. I hope this will help our numbers continue to grow. There is strength in numbers when all have a common goal.
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As Katie says you have touched my life and I'm sure many others. I wish you peace of mind body and spirit. Lillian
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Oh Shirley I am so sorry. I had hoped that the news would be better. I know how difficult this is for you so soon after losing Randy. Please know that my heart and prayers are with you. May you and your family find peace as well as your mom.
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Yes hospice is only for those who have given up on any agressive or life saving treatments.
Like Dean I question why these same services are not available for those who chose to fight agressively.
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Prayers being said for them and for you as well as you lend her support.
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Yes I remember you. Welcome home!
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Shirley I have been wondering about you a lot lately. I'm sorry to learn the reason for you absence. I can truly relate to your fears and frustration being so far away. When my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer I was 2400 miles away.
I don't know the answers to your questions. I will suggest that some of your questions would be similar to what you would ask about lung cancer sense you already know a lot about that.
You have and will continue to be in my thoughts and prayers. Lillian
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Just 4 short years ago if anyone would have told me where I would be now or the things that would be important to me I would have laughed at them. Then I moved from one world to another and is much too short a time that world ended too.
When I came her to this wild and beautiful place less than a year and a half ago not only was my heart broken but my spirit as well. There is such beauty here that my spirit could not resist it for long. I had a long way to go and still do for my heart to mend if it ever does, but slowly my spirit started to heal. I no longer had any need to hurry. Time meant nothing to me there was nothing to do but let the natural beauty here revive my spirit and soon my soul was rejoycing to my environment.
When planning the trip last summer to my granddaughter's wedding in Louisiana I had the feeling that I would never see my home again or the beauty of nature and freeness of spirit that I had come to love. Each afternoon I would spend hours outside just trying to drink it all in to take with me always fearing that I was about to lose it all.
There were hundreds of birds of all kinds but mostly Bluejays and Blackbirds. Earlier in the year there had been Robins but by summer they had moved on. There were also many quail and those were a special treat to me. I could remember hearing the quail roosters crow in Washington and how excited Johnny would get. They were also one of the signs I had asked him for to let me know when he is with me. Each afternoon as I sat there in awe looking at the mountains of green trees against a crystal blue sky I could hear the wind in the distance and listen as it made it's way ever closer until I could feel it on my face. Sometimes on special days I would see a shadow and look up to see the Eagles flying high overhead. Once in a while the sun would catch on their white heads as the swooped toward Earth.
The first few days after my return I couldn't make myself do anything. It was as if I just had to sit and look and let my spirit absorb all of the things I had missed. Then just a little over a month later the fire swept through here threatening to consume everything. Most of our homes were spared but returning and seeing what the fire had done, what it had taken was like a physical blow.
Everywhere you looked instead of the beautiful evergreens you saw charred skeletons. Some stands of oak were not burned but their leaves were scorched and brown. The most devistating of all was the lack of animals and birds. Hundreds, probably thousands were killed in the fire unable to out run it's speed. Many more ran ahead of the fire and had no reason to return.
Where once we would see several deer a day come through or just lay on the lawn sunning themselves we saw only one sick buck. After spending a day on the lawn barely able to move from one place to another a neighbor found him dead in his yard. Where once there had been hundreds of birds with their ceaceless chatter there was only silence. It was months before I saw a single Bluejay and even longer before the Blackbirds returned. The only thing that seemed to remain were the Humingbirds and to my delight the quail.
I had looked forward to Autum and the colored leaves that I loved so much. The year before I had been in Washington and Johnny and I had shared the breathtaking beauty of the many colored leaves. This year there would be no colored leaves. Everything was gone but those black skeletons against the blue sky.
I had little hope for Spring. Then nature decided to teach me a lesson. The lesson of rebirth! Weeks before the grass seed was dropped on the mountains patches of green started to show. In some places the fire had burned so hot that not even the skeletons of the trees remained it seemed that even the dirt had burned. In other places the fire had moved so fast that many of the roots had not been burned. It was from these roots that patches of green started to show long before there was even any rainfall.
Once the rains started the grass seed that had been planted turned it to bright green patches. It was a sign of new life but at the same time it seemed to emphasize those dark skeletons.
We were blessed with a milder than normal winter and many flowers that would normally have died wintered over. Those flowers started to bloom early and for some reason their colors seem brighter than they were last year. Between here and Redding and even in the yards here in the park trees started to bloom and sprout early. It seemed there was hope for spring after all.
Lately I have noticed more birds around and once I planted my pansies I found evidence that the deer were coming back at least at night. My pansies had lost their heads to them! I've yet to see one but just knowing they are here is a wonderful surprise.
Yesterday on my way out of the gulch to go to town I saw Redbud trees blooming. In places they were up against a burned tree trunk. The California Poppies are everywhere and somehow their color seems more golden and the Lupin seem a more vibrant shade of purple.
Today I got one of the best treats of all. I was eating my lunch and looking out my Bay Window when a shadow caught my eye. I got a tingle up my spine because it was the last thing I expected. I went to the window and looked out and sure enough there was an Eagle swooping low over the park. I hadn't expected them to come back because both nests had burned and there are no trees left that seemed high enough to house them.
There are still many things missing. It will be years before the evergreen trees return and I can hear the wind coming before it gets here. For some reason the Robins are making an appearance later. I haven't heard of any spottings of bear or cougar like there were last year but I know in time they will find their way back. After all this is as close to Paradise as you can get on Earth.
I know this is long and I know it has nothing to do with Lung Cancer but it does have something to do with life. This story is about rebirth, rebirth of my spirit and rebirth of an area that seemed destined to stay stark and barren for years.
While I watched the Eagle fly I thought about Dean Carl and his pleasure watching the birds in his yard. I wanted to tell this story and I wanted to do it in such a way that I hoped would paint a picture in your minds but especially in Dean's mind. Dean I hope you can picture what I have told here and get a fraction of the joy these things have given me.
There has been so much pain here lately and a lot of controversy. I thought maybe a story of Rebirth, a story of God's precious gifts to us might be something that is needed here to lighten our heavy hearts for a while. If ever there was a message of Hope it is the coming of Spring when all Earth shows signs of rebirth.
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When I first found Johnny again I was not sure that we would ever see one another again much less be together. At that time I wrote a poem for him. He told me that he loved it so much that he would always keep it with him. The night after his death I was desperate to know that he was alright because I knew how much he wanted to live. I have so many questions about his death but as I put in another post the one that haunts me the most is "is he alright does he still exist?" I was so desperate that night that I begged him and I prayed to God to let me know that he is alright and not afraid anymore. Then quite by accident I found the poem I had written for him. It was as if he were using my words to comfort me. That poem disappeared that night and I was not to find it again until a time that the torment of that question threatened to destroy me.
I still have terrible days when that question bothers me, days when I feel guilt for so many things words that were spoken and things that I missed. When the pain gets to bad I find that poem and read it again. It is as if when I wrote it it was meant to help me now. When I read it I picture Johnny in all of those places and circumstances telling me that he will always be with me. I hope that it can give you and maybe someone else a small measure of peace.
I'll be with you
In the early hours of morning as nature for a new day does prepare
Close your eyes and think of me and I will be there
When you walk beside the sea and the wind blows on your face
Think of the one who loves you in a far off distant place
When Spring begins in earnest all the world to renew
I'll share in the beauty as I walk beside you
It the warm soft days of summer when gentle breezes softly blow
Think of all the love we shared in a time so long ago
In the lazy days of Autum with it's colors red and gold
Think of a love that has never grown old
In the cold damp days of Winter when the sun the clouds do hide
I'll be there to warm you, I am always by your side
I pray that when the years have passed and this life grows to an end
There will be a new life to share our love again
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I am seeking answers to a question that has haunted me sense Johnny's death. I have read so much about people who are dying and those who have had near death experiences. There is so much evidence to support that there is another life after this one. I have been lucky enough to have had many extra ordinary experiences sense Johnny's death but still I have doubts. I just have to have something that I can add to my experiences to hold on to.
How many people have witnessed their loved one talking to departed loved ones or talking about the light or having to go? Has it given you some sense of peace and did you feel that it gave your loved one peace?
Some scientists say that people have those experiences because of the drugs they are on yet I saw just the oposite.
When someone dies a natural death even when given drugs in the last stages of death they show those signs hours, days and sometimes weeks before. I know that often helps the ones left behind and I think it must help the one who is dying to face death without so much fear.
Johnny displayed none of those things. Not days before or even the hours before. I feel like either the drugs or because it was not his natural time to die cheated me out of the experience and the peace that goes with it. Even worse I wonder if Johnny was cheated of it too
Did he get to experience those things at the end when he was in a drug induced coma? Could they have been speeded up because of that or did he miss them altogether?
I know this sounds crazy but it has haunted me for over two years. Maybe some how if I hear about others who witnessed those things it will help me accept that the things I have experienced sense then are real. It is so hard to lose someone you love so much but wondering how they are and needing to know that they don't just cease to exist is pure torment. That is the first question that came to my mind and the one that I need to know the answer to the most.
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coffee beans
in HOPE
-----Original
You will never look at a cup of
coffee the same way again.
A young woman went to her mother and told her about her life and how things
were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and
wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. It seemed as
one problem was solved, a new one arose.
Her mother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water and
placed each on a high fire. Soon the pots came to boil. In the first she
placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs, and in the last she placed
ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil, without saying a word.
In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners. She fished the carrots
out and placed them in a bowl. She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a
bowl. Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl.
Turning to her daughter, she asked, "Tell me, what you see?"
"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied. Her mother brought her closer and
asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they were soft. The
mother then asked the daughter to take an egg and break it. After pulling
off the shell, she observed the hard boiled egg. Finally, the mother asked
the daughter to sip the coffee. The daughter smiled as she tasted its rich
aroma.
The daughter then asked, "What does it mean, mother?"
Her mother explained that each of these objects had faced the same
adversity ..... boiling water. Each reacted differently. The carrot went in
strong, hard, and unrelenting. However, after being subjected to the
boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile. Its
thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior, but after sitting
through the boiling water, its inside became hardened. The ground coffee
beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water, they had
changed the water.
"Which are you?" she asked her daughter. "When adversity knocks on your
door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?"
Think of this:
Which am I? Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity
do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength?
Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat?
Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial
hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff? Does my
shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff
spirit and hardened heart?
Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the
very circumstance that brings the pain. When the water gets hot, it
releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things
are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you.
When the hour is the darkest and trials are their greatest, do you elevate
yourself to another level?
How do you handle adversity? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?
May you have enough happiness to make you sweet, enough trials to make you
strong, enough sorrow to keep you human and enough hope to make you happy.
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they
just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
The brightest future will always be based on a forgotten past; you can't go
forward in life until you let go of your past failures and heartaches.
When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling.
Live your life so at the end, you're the one who is smiling and everyone
around you is crying.
You might want to send this message to those people who mean something to
you; to those who have touched your life in one way or another; to those
who make you smile when you really need it; to those who make you see the
brighter side of things when you are really down; to those whose friendship
you appreciate; to those who are so meaningful in your life.
"Treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you will help them
become what they are capable of becoming." - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
__________________
With God behind you, and his arms beneath you,
you can face whatever is ahead of you.
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Ann and Mary Ann thank you. You pretty well sumed it up. I agree too about the ones who have gone missing. There are times when what we have to say is not popular but sometimes those things need to be said. You can't live your life in a vacuum or with you head stuck in the sand. Life is hard and there are lessons to be learned from every situation.
No matter how this turns out someone will lose. Someone will suffer emotional pain. What really upsets me is that I see someones misfortune and heartache being used as a political pon. I really believe that there is little if any decency left in politics any more.
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For those of you who are thinking about a nursing home I have some information that may help.
If a nursing home accepts Medicare there is a site where you can check them out. It lists how they are staffed and how many hours are provided for a each patient with either a nurse of a nurses aide. It also tells you of any deficiencies they have been cited for and if they caused harm or how much potential they have for causing harm.
Go to medicare and search for nursing home compare. It will take you through the process. You can search by state, zip code or name. I hope this will help someone.
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I am so very sorry that I ever opened this topic. I didn't mean for it to cause any more pain. God knows there is enough of that already. I was just being overwhelmed with some very painful memories and thought that sharing them with people I care about would help. I know now that was a mistake.
None of us have the right to judge these people nor do we have the right to judge one another. Life is not fair and decisions are hard. Biting at each other here is not going to solve this problem. It will never make it easier for us or any family member to have to face these issues. So please let's just let it go. Leave it in the hands of God and pray that these people can find some peace.
Becky I truly admire your grit and your determination to stand up for yourself. I admire everyone on this board because you all have faced the monster in one way or another and have not backed down. This is truly a painful subject and the diversity in ideas just shows how very human we all are.
Again I am sorry for having opened this can of worms. Let's give it some rest now.
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Boy I had no idea what I was getting into when I made this post. I only did it because this whole thing brings back some very painful memories. Who is right and who is wrong? No one really knows. All we can do is speculate. Personally I have been too closely envolved in situations very similar. If I had to be the one to chose I honestly don't know what I would do. I just will tell you that I don't believe in starvation for any reason and I doubt the doctors definition of brain dead. Does that mean I think this young woman has a life worth living? No I don't but again that is not my call to make.
I do know that when I was with Harry and spoke to him and he started sobbing I had no doubt that he knew what I was saying. Why else would he only do that when I said certain things? Would he have wanted to live like that? I can answer that question easily. The answer is No. Do I think his parents were selfish for wanting him to have that operation? The answer to that is no as well. Different people handle situations differently. When it is your child it has to be the most difficult thing of all.
Johnnys brother that is another story. For the first few years he didn't improve nor did he get worse. He was never considered brain dead but severely damaged. His physical condition has deteriorated but in the past 3 years his mental capacity has grown. Brain cells do regenerate sometimes.
There is one more situation that I didn't mention. In 1974 my brother was rushed to the hospital hemraging. For several minutes he was getting no oxygen to his brain. He remained in a coma. Not once did he open his eyes nor did he move. After several days they did an encyphliagram(SP). After that test they told us he was brain dead. The asked my sister in law to make the decision about removing life support. She would not make that decision on her own. She felt that my parents and us siblings, myself and 3 brothers) had as much right to make that call as she did. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done but I finally agreed to have him taken off of life support. My mom and one brother couldn't do it. Because most of us agreed he was removed from life support.
Several days passed and he continued to live. One morning I found myself alone at the hospital. Everyone else had gone home to bathe. We had been staying in the ICU waiting room 24 hours a day for nearly two weeks. That morning I looked out at the mountains and knew that I had to do something. I went to the chapel and I prayed. I asked God to give me the strength to face what lay ahead. I also asked that I would know what I should do. I stayed there for a half hour then dried my tears and headed up to see my brother. I had only been in to see him once. I had left my family in Louisiana to go to him and soon after I left they were facing a major huricain. I was too emotionally unstable to go to my brother while my family faced that threat.
I met one of my brothers and a friend on the way up to his room. She went in with me. He was so still and he didn't look like my brother but everyone said it was him. I had to believe them. I took his hand and started talking to him. I told him that I loved him but I knew that he didn't want to be like he was. I told him that as much as it hurt all of us if he wanted to go it was alright. I swear when I said those words he let out a very deep sye. I kissed him then left him there.
When I got to Mama's house she was upset. She told me that she felt that she had to go to him because he was going to wake up and ask for her. I had to tell her that he would not wake up but if she felt like she had to be there she should go. She was with him less than a minute when he died. Barely over an hour after I told him it was alright.
We were told that he was brain dead. Yet he responded when I talked to him. I will never believe that he was brain dead. Did I do the right thing? Yes I know that I did. The one question that I have had to live with is was he releaved to be let go because of his condition or because he was suffering without life support? I will never know the answer to that question. I watched my mama stand at his coffin and I watched as a part of her died. She was never the same again but lived to see two more of her sons die. Life is hard and we sometimes have hard decisions to make. People who love someone can not be thought of as mean or selfish. No one knows the torment someone else is going through.
I suggest that we pray for this whole family. There is not a one of them who doesn't need our prayers and a little understanding. I would not want to be in their shoes. I know how much those shoes can wrench your heart.
At least this situation should have made it clear how important it is to have your wishes in writing. To spell out exactly what you do and don't want. Not only that but appoint someone to carry out YOUR wishes, not their own.
By the way when another of my brothers had a massive heart attack in 1983 we made sure that he was not taken off of life support. We all knew how he felt about it. He was the one who would not agree to take my other brother off. He lived for two more years after his heart attack. During that time Mama was diagnosed with lung cancer. She had to go through radiation. I know that if he had died she would never have had the strength to do it. He died in March 1985 and Mama died of cancer and a broken heart in October that same year. Life is not fair!
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Ann and Becky I am afraid that this is one time I have to disagree with you tho I can certainly understand your opinions. As I said having something so similar happen to two people I love and watching their families struggle over this same issue I can see both sides.
I absolutely agree that no one would want to live like that. Neither would anyone chose to live in a wheel chair all of their lives or to have to face all of the physical and emotional aspects of cancer. I can't argue with that. The thing is where do you draw the line? Most important how does anyone really know this woman's wishes. She did not put them in writing.
I would be much more inclined to believe that her husband is looking out for her interest and her wishes if he hadn't waited ten years and until he got a large sum of money to make this decision.
As for her parents don't be too harsh on them. They lost their daughter once and now they are facing loosing her again. It is easy to speculate and judge when it is not you in the same position. Until it happens to someone you love no matter how certain you are before that certaintly can change when faced with reality.
My main concern here is starving her to death. No matter what they say about it not making her suffer who knows that for sure? How many of her doctors or the others envolved have been starved to death and are able to say that because of first hand experience? Starvation is not humane. It is cold and calous. If they want to kill her why don't they just come out and say "we are going to kill her"? Why don't they just give her a big dose of morphine or the drug they use on to kill those who have been condemned to die? After all it is not as if THAT never happens
They just don't want to be seen as killers. Well as long as that woman is breathing on her own and uses no other form of life support other than nutrition and hydration she is NOT in a vegitative state. She smiles and responds with her eyes. A turly brain dead person whould not be able to do that. I know because I saw my brother like that!
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Wow Lori I can see how hard this is on you. Family relationships can be so complex and no one else understands until they are in your place.
I nor anyone else can tell you how to handle the situation with your mother and brother. Hopefully the solution will come to you in time. As for your dad's belongings I suggest that you tell your brother that if nothing has any value to him that is alright but some things do have value to you. Explain to him that you not only want but expect those things to be there waiting when you get there. If your words fall on deaf ears threaten to use the power you have. At least that way you will not lose something that may be precious to you.
We are all told that we need to forgive. That is something I have had a very hard time with. Some things are just impossible to forgive no matter how hard we try. I have learned to forgive some of the people who hurt my Johnny but others I have not. I will tell you that I have learned that to forgive does not mean that you condone a person's behavior. Forgiveness is not for the person you forgive but for your own peace. You also have to trust that God knows you and loves you well enough to forgive you for not always being able to forgive. After all none of us are perfect.
I hope that you find a solution to these problems soon. It is hard enough to deal with the death of a loved one without having so much other garbage to deal with too. My prayers will be with you. Lillian
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You are very smart to have made an advanced directive. Many people don't think about it or decide to do it until they are in a situation and it is too late. That puts the family members in a place that is very hard for them.
About the morpine issue there is much to be discussed about that. Believe me I know the opinion of the medical profession. I have read everything I can find on morpine in the past two years. I know only too well about the rule of double effect. That is not really what I take issue with.
That rule states that a doctor can give a patient morphine or any drug if it is given with the right intention. If the intent is to ease a person's pain and NOT to kill it can be given even knowing that the possible side effect will be death. Unfortunately that leaves the door open to push it much further and it is being pushed every day. Believe me I know first hand.
I know that SHARON did NOT kill her dad nor have any of the others who have been put in the same position kill their loved one. There is a very thin line in some cases and more often than not that line is stepped over. The proof is the doctors response to Sharon's question. Most doctore won't admit that their intent was to end the life sooner.
Morphine can be a wonderful thing if given in the proper way and for the right reason. If a person is in pain the pain actually eats the bad side effects such as depressed breathing and unbalanced blood gases. IF the pain increases the morphine can be SLOWLY increased to match and control the pain.
On the other hand if morphine is given when there is NO PAIN IT CAN AND DOES KILL. When given in those circumstances it is NOT cancer or any other thing that is the actual cause of death. It is the MORPHINE.
If a person is actively dying morphine can ease them out of this life with less discomfort. I have no problem with that. Actively dying means that person is in the final process of dying within hours NOT within days or weeks
When Morphine or any drug is given with the intent to end someones life earlier no matter what the excuse it is not disease that kills them and the responsibity lies with the ones who make that decision and I certainly do NOT mean the family member who is NOT given all of the imformation to make that decision. The responsibility belongs to the ones who know what they are doing. The sad thing is that if it were any other disease more questions would be asked when a death occurs so soon after being given morphine but when lung cancer is envolved any and everything is excused. That is the main issue of this discussion. NO ONE has the right to decide a person's quality of life except them. NO ONE has the right to play GOD. I agree that no one should have to suffer extreme pain or stuggle to breathe their last few breaths. Helping them in those conditions is the right thing to do. If we continue to allow a person's life to be cut short for any other reason we are opening a door that can lead to much more serious extremes.
As I said earlier. I don't want to offend or hurt anyone. God knows there is enough emotional pain here already. I just want the family members who are asked to make this most critical decison to have all of the information to make that decison. No one should ever be tormented like Sharon and so many others are. When they make that decison they should be told the exact truth.. As we can see that is NOT happening.
Prayers for my sister
in HOPE
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Prayers being sent right now. I know that you have had enough heartbreak it is time to say "enough already". Wishing you and your sister the very best of news.