Fay A. Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 It is NOT acceptable to allow other, life threatening illnesses to go untreated under the guise of "letting the lung cancer disease run it's course." Dying of bowel obstruction is not dying from lung cancer. Dying of massive infection is not dying from lung cancer. Dying of starvation, dehydration, etc, etc, etc, is NOT dying from lung cancer. It's neglect. Period. Allowing other medical problems to go untreated because someone "has lung cancer and is going to die anyway, so what's the point of prolonging life." is WRONG. The point of prolonging life is to be able to LIVE IT, and love and laugh. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Only my medical providers and the ones who claim to love me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MO_Sugar Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Count me in agreement! God Bless, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ry Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I am so glad you posted this. Everytime I read a post by someone saying their loved one cannot eat or is having another problem that is going untreated I just steam. I get angry over physicians taking advantage of a family members ignorance to let someone die, for example from a bowel obstruction or dehydration. I don't know how many times there have been posts on here where individuals are literally starving to death. Thanks Fay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowflake Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Thank you, Fay, you Left Coast goddess! Love your pull-no-punches, in-your-face attitude. It gets things done! A beer truck is one thing, bad medicine is unacceptable. Now if I can just line that beer truck up for the old hag and her baggage..... Gotta be CHEAP beer though (Old Milwaukee?), NOT a Guinness truck... Hogs & quiches, Becky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stand4hope Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Fay, Whether I agreed with you or not (which I do - STRONGLY), I'm not a medical provider, but I do "claim to love you" (even though I don't know you). Like Ry, I also appreciate you posting this message. I haven't gotten even close to anything like this with my husband, and pray that I never do, but as I've posted before, my dad is very seriously ill from severe COPD (former smoker, but quit about 25 yrs. ago). He fell on Jan. 30 and has spent the past 2 1/2 mos. in the hospital with broken ribs, infections & lot of problems. I've seen posts, and have seen firsthand, where former smokers or current smokers are treated like they basically "did it to themselves by choice" by medical providers. About a month ago, I told my dad's pulmonary doctor that I prayed that if I ever got old and sick that I would have a doctor that would fight for me as hard as he has fought for my dad. I know for a fact that because of the severity of his COPD and age (76) that some doctors never would have put in the time and effort. At the point when they admitted my dad to ICU for the second time (where he remained for 6 weeks), there wasn't much hope - he was on 8 liters of oxygen and struggling HARD for every breath. He said he didn't want to go on a ventilator if he was terminal (which he basically was and is), but he still has LIFE. This doctor told him that he would give him a 50/50 chance to "get better" if he at least tried it, but he gave him 24 hrs. if he didn't. He told dad he would respect his request if he really didn't want to, but that he really hoped he would try. After he was put on the vent, he continued to develop many other problems, all of which made him worse, but this doctor just would not give up. He has now been released from ICU, is in a long-term acute care hospital, and has gotten over all many quite serious problems he developed after he fell. He is still on the ventilator because the COPD really isn't getting better, but right now he feels good and is in GREAT spirits, is walking with a walker, etc., etc. and really doing well. To my dad, his only living sister, and to my brother and sisters and my dad's friends, just because he is going to probably die, eventually, from the COPD, we are grateful to God that he had one of those blessed doctors, of which there are many I'm sure, that fight for the life of the patient and don't choose death just because they're going to die anyway (or because they're sick because they smoked). This is a very serious post, so I don't want this to change the tone of this thread, but after those bad ole' doctors lose their licenses, I hope 1,000 geese fly over and POOP on all their empty heads. Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanCarl Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Fay, As someone who is "letting the disease run it's course" I have to say I couldn't agree with you more! I'm a bit ashamed, as the moderator of "The Path Less Travelled" forum, that I haven't posted something like this myself. I sat down with both my VA doctor, my hospice nurse, family and friends and went over EXACTLY what I wanted and didn't want when it came to my care. No ambiguities, no family having to make crisis decisions without knowing EXACTLY what my wishes are in every situation we could think up. There is a basic criteria I have for what is an acceptable "quality of life". If that criteria can stil be met by treating whatever non-cancer related illness I may have, then they (meaning doctors, nurses, emergancy personel, whatever) had better da** well treat it. "The point of prolonging life is to be able to LIVE IT, and love and laugh." This get's printed out and put somewhere where I won't forget to read it every day! Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrea Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Fay, Here here! So wise and so eloquently said! I concur! I also would add hoping for a miracle also as a reason to prolong life. You just never know when the cure will arrive. Tomorrow works for me My boss is in a bad situation and has your exact attitude. Her husband suffered an aortic anyerism over a year ago (that is what John Ritter died of) and is still in a coma. So many people tell her to let go and stop keeping him alive. But she FIRMLY believes, and I agree with her wholeheartedly, that when it is his time, it is his time. She REFUSES to let him die of starvation (ie, pull feeding tube) or an untreated infection b/c while she knows the reality is he most likely will pass away, there is always that 1% chance he will wake up; and even if he does not, she does not want his last moments on earth to be ones of pain. Go Fay go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimblanchard Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 AMEN!! Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C. Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Fay, I agree with you 100%. J.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyjohn Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Thank you so much Fay. As someone who lost the love of my life to a so called doctor like that I can certainly relate. Unfortunately they don't lose their medical license as Peggy suggested. That has certainly been my goal to see that they do but it just doesn't work. They have too many people they have convenced that they are doing the things they do and saying the things they say because they are some kind of moral Gods that can determine everyones quality of life or if a person has a right to life. I learned first hand that medical boards are just there to cover their asses and excuse any behavior. Lawyers don't want to touch a case where lung cancer is envolved because our current administration backs the fight against mal practice suits( I was told that by an attorney). I suppose it never occurs to them that if the state medical boards did their jobs or doctors didn't screw up or play God there would be no need for mal practice suits.Taken to court that is the argument doctors use to get away with doing what THEY want not what the PATIENT wants. The only way things like that are going to change is when enough people stand up and demand that they change. That is why I tell my story to everyone and am still trying to find a way to take it back to those doctors who harmed Johnny then "helped" him die against his will. So I say hang tough lady keep that attitude and beat them in the *ss any time you get a chance. Someday they will learn that they are dealing with real people not just a disease. It may take one or more of them ending up with the same kind of treatment they dish out before they see but I still believe that what goes around comes around sooner or later. One of my favorite words has become JUSTICE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I am going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. I am not totally against hospice in any way. However, I think there are a few things that people need to be aware of as far as hospice care. Oftentimes, if hospice is not called in until the "last minute" people don't really understand what hospice will and will not treat. That was the case when my father was "nearing the end" several years ago. There is bueracratic redtape involved with hospice--you need to know this. If you are under hospice care, the hospice provider is your main provider unless you revoke it. You must revoke it before you can get any other care, which means you can't revoke it in the middle of the night or on weekends. There is paperwork involved. This is my understanding. My father lived three more months past the day hospice was called in and gave his wife morphine etc and told us that the morphine would see to it that he was gone within a week since they assumed without dialysis, about a week is all someone without kidney function will live. When he got a cold, he was not given antibiotics--the only way he could get them is that I got ahold of his family Dr and got the prescription and paid for it myself. Hospice would not give him antibiotics. You WILL starve to death unless you can eat on your own. You will not be allowed a feeding tube with hospice. I also imagine that if you get a bowel obstruction, you will die from it. You may not know that you have such an obstruction or let me say this: your family will not know because you will not be allowed any testing to see if you in fact do have an obstruction. Maybe things have changed when my these things happened with my father, but I don't think so. I am not going to go into all of the details of that horrid time, but I am forever leary of hospice now, and I urge people to really know well in advance what will and will not happen with hospice care. My father was taken advantage of and people who are ill, can easily have this happen to them. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheresaKB Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Fay, Very well said! I couldn't agree with you more. Theresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stand4hope Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 OUCH! I think Fay's post might be getting a little off-topic real fast, and I'm very, very, very sorry if I contributed to get any of it started. I'm afraid this is a thread that could go bad and maybe cause some bad feelings amongst us. It's now expanded to issues far from the intent of Fay's post. I don't know how much freedom is allowed on this site, but I do know how easily things can get "political" or "controversial" - I hate it when that happens. Any chance we can leave Fay's post to just say what it says so that people know they have a right to get treated for things unrelated to cancer and leave it at that so there won't be any hard feelings. Love to all (and as my late Mom would have said: "Peace baby!") Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay A. Posted April 14, 2004 Author Share Posted April 14, 2004 Absolutely, Peggy. This kind of thing occurs all the time, and not just under Hospice. I have been dealing with this problem repeatedly for the past almost 5 years. And because I have been so aggressive about medical care for all medical problems I'm still here almost 5 years after diagnosis. My belief system is that I will die when my God is ready to take me. And if I die before then because someone fails to treat me it isn't a whole lot different than someone sticking a knife in my heart. The key words here are fail to treat, not the treatment fails. There's a difference. Sometimes there are "bad outcomes", under the best of circumstances. We have to be able to distinguish between the two. I don't want to cause anyone to be hurt by anything I say. But I also don't want to let anyone get away with presenting treatable conditions as the disease of lung cancer running it's course. It isn't. They treat diabetics for neuropathy, circulatory problems and the resultant infections. And no one says anything about allowing the disease to run it's course then. They can't cure diabetes, either. I better stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Peggy I guess you are meaning to say that my post was offensive or something? I hope not. I didn't mean to be offensive. I meant to tell people what I know from my experience. I also know that many people call hospice in at an emotional time and don't really know what to expect. I know I didn't. I think it is up to each individual and family to decide what they want. It is not up to government redtape to decide. That's what I wanted to let people know. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stand4hope Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Elaine, QUITE THE CONTRARY! I hope I never, never, never need that hospice info, but am very grateful to have it just in case I do. Just so everybody doesn't go to thinking I was offended about anything anybody said - I WASN'T OFFENDED BY ONE THING! I was specifically referring to the man in the coma and the comments about doctors and med mal lawyers. Ok - now, hold on, let me explain. I don't know all the circumstances about the poor man in the coma, but if I was in a coma for a year, and on a feeding tube, with only 1% chance of surviving, I would hope and pray that my loved ones would let me go be with my Lord - my time would have come and gone - to me, that isn't quality of life. We don't know all the circumstances behind this matter, so that's all I'll say about that. (Ok, that's my disagreement no. 1). Also, disagreement no. 2 (and you're either going to love me for this or hate me): I work for a law firm with some of the finest med mal lawyers you would ever want to know, and in fact, they are currently defending two of my own personal doctors, that I love with all my heart, on matters of which they are probably innocent. I bet if you asked all of your doctors that you love if they have ever had a malpractice suit filed against them, most of them would say "yes". Anyway, both of those situations are the ones to which I referred, and both of those posts had 100% valid situations to deal with, neither of which offended me in the least. Like I said, back to Fay's post - please be sure you get treated for what ails you!!!! Love to all, Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyjohn Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I guess I failed to make the point I was trying to. My point is had Johnny been treated for the anxiety and panic attacks he would have never been in the hospital and all of the other things would be non issues. It was their refusal to treat the anxiety that started the process that took his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karen335 Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Fay/Andrea and all, I agree. I say Amen to giving the best care to a patient. No matter what the situation may be. It is our life and doctor's should never give up on a patient. It should be a fight, fight situation. As Andrea said, there is always that 1% chhance of survival. It is God's will not the doctor's, the doctor's should not be deciding who lives and dies. That is NOT their job. If this happens, then get new doctor's pronto. This is what happened to my father back in 1998 in Phoenix. I got the Attorney General in Arizona involved... Keep on fighting for our rights. Blessings and prayers, Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerbil runner Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I think (could be wrong of course) that the one thing we ALL agree on is that the patient (and then close family should the patient not be able to adress changes in circumstance) should be the one to decide how far treatment goes. A dr. who does not agressively treat any and all problems brought up by a patient who requests full, agressive treatment is not much short of a murderer. People who choose hospice care with the understanding that there no curative treatment for their specific disease still deserve treatment for any other condition which is of concern, whether it is starvation, obstruction, or a d*mn hangnail. A patient with a life-threatening illness should be able to have full, informed choice over treatment. It is my understanding that hospice became popular because too many dying people had painful, unwanted life-prolonging treatments forced without consent. There must be a better way...hospice should not be the end of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimblanchard Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Thank you to all who contributed their thoughts and experiences. Information is a good thing and it is good to keep in mind all possibilities. It helps me to think ahead to various scenarios, which can't help but contribute to a better decision if needed. Thank you. Margaret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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